Fixed penalty for feet on seats (metal frame)

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by FSF, 14 Feb 2020.

  1. Stigy

    Stigy Established Member

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    I wore a bodycam (Body Worm Video - BWV) and they do have an impact (mostly positive, but occasionally negative), as @C J Snarzell said. I didn’t often have to activate mine, but even on it’s pretty-record’ mode, peoples’ general attitude changed (there was always a light flashing whether it was recording or not). There are some people who just don’t care, but more fool them really because the evidence was very clear when we needed to use it in court :E

    From a private company point of view, we had strict guidance of when we were permitted to activate BWV and it was strictly when somebody was becoming aggressive/if there was an element of ASB or if there was other benefit to capturing evidence (they wouldn’t budge on not allowing us to record fare evaders...).

    Obviously there were some staff opposed to wearing BWV...usually those who thought the management would use them to spy on staff...:E
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    These Merseyrail officers do wear them, FWIW.

    I'm actually surprised they're not on by default on a loop like regular CCTV, as they could also be used to ensure the staff member acted properly in a complaint. Though obviously they'd need to be able to be deactivated for e.g. toilet use.
     
  3. C J Snarzell

    C J Snarzell Member

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    The body cams only record when you activate them - generally they stay on a standby mode which is rather like a mobile phone that is switched on but not actually being used.

    The issue of bosses/management using the body cams to spy on staff is just nonsense and for any organisation to 'bug' their staff and listen on private conversations requires all sorts of legal requirements under RIPA legislation.

    CJ
     
  4. C J Snarzell

    C J Snarzell Member

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    What supervisors might do is dip sample recordings of the staff dealing with the customers which is when the camera is activated. This could be done to monitor staff performance or simply deal with a complaint.
     
  5. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    It would be helpful if you could explain what you mean by the "metal frame next to an empty seat". Do you mean the uprights to the frame or the "shelf" between the seats?

    Whenever I've travelled on Merseyrail the posters about the byelaws have always seemed pretty prominent. I seem to recall stickers as well saying "feet on floor, not on seats" or similar but that may have been elsewhere.
     
  6. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member Associate Staff General Discussion

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    Just keep your feet on the floor - why do some people find that instruction so difficult to follow!
     
  7. Saperstein

    Saperstein Member

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    There was a piece on ITV Wales at Six the other night.

    TfW are giving their workers Body cams to combat anti-social behaviour on the network.

    I think all customer facing rail staff should have them. Whether they are on or not, surely they are a deterrent.

    Saperstein.
     
  8. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

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    Absolutely right, body cams moderate behaviour on both sides. 'Gobby' offenders learn very quickly that an actual record of their behaviour will be available later and 'gobby' staff learn not to be for exactly the same reason!

    I also agree with Stigy, I rarely had any great problem, but as I said earlier, in the past, if outnumbered and things looked ugly, step back and take an alternative path to a successful conclusion.
     
  9. Fare-Cop

    Fare-Cop Member

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    Most revenue protection staff on TfW have had them since the franchise changed.
     
  10. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    In my own experience, anyone who gets "done" for having their feet on the seats on Merseyrail, (including the metal divider in the middle and between the window seat and the side of the carriage) deserves everything they get.

    There are numerous signs warning passengers not to do this (which leave absolutely nothing to doubt regarding the "metal" part). In my own personal experience, when the enforcement officers board, there is ALWAYS an announcement over the PA telling passengers not to do it BEFORE they walk the length of the train.

    A family sat in the opposite bay to me consisted of one older teenage boy, (among two younger children) with his feet up (after the PA warning). The officers warned him and he even resisted when (presumably) his mum told him to put them down. I'd have kicked his arse.
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2020
  11. 35B

    35B Member

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    In my case - and as a supporter of this regulation - because I often cross my legs when sitting - and have long enough legs that, in an empty bay of seats, I have to think to avoid letting my foot touch the seats opposite.
     
  12. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Established Member

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    I recall noticing back in the late 80s in the DDR that the seats in a compartment were so far apart it was hard to use the opposite one as a foot rest (shoes off in my case) - so maybe that's the answer, build rolling stock which is spacious enough to prevent the issue being possible.
     
  13. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Even on transverse seating units (such as an Overground 378) I've seen someone decide to lay across the seats to rest their feet on the seat opposite at the northern end of the Watford DC line.
     
  14. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Established Member

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    wow !
     
  15. joke2711

    joke2711 Member

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    Normally on Merseyrail .. when any Bylaw Enforcement Officers enter a train .. the Guard makes a simple announcement that in line with Merseyrail bylaws .. it is an offence to smoke, drink alcohol or have your feet on ANY part of the seats opposite. Once you hear this .. you know a walk through is about to take place.
     
  16. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    They tend to start the walk through while this PA is taking place. So if you are in the same coach as which they start walking through, you might not have heard it in time. Though they tend to do the PA before the walk through, this doesn't always happen.
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I wonder why they do that? While that means their feet get taken down this time, it also means they don't get caught and so the long term problem isn't solved, a bit like uniformed vs plain clothes ticket inspectors. Though as a holder of a valid ticket I used to love trying to pick the latter out on the U-Bahn in Germany - you could easily work them out by their body language.
     
  18. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    The same reason the Police park a big dayglow patrol car outside the school gates once every five years. Too much trouble to park it two streets away and book the lazy sods who park on the zig-zags (and on the pavement) at 08.59 every morning.
     
  19. Stigy

    Stigy Established Member

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    Sometimes it’s just as beneficial to prevent offences occurring in the first place. Much the same as police speed checks occurring at random intervals on the same stretch of road. People tend to keep their speed down and thus the van has done its job. People don’t necessarily need to get a penalty notice or whatever to be prevented from committing offences.
    I the case of Merseyrail. I’d imagine a lot of people simply switch off to announcements anyway, therefore they get caught anyway. At least then they can’t really plead ignorance either.
     
  20. Grumpy Git

    Grumpy Git Member

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    It doesn't stop the repeat offenders.
     
  21. Stigy

    Stigy Established Member

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    Neither do fixed penalties or court appearances most of the time.
     
  22. C J Snarzell

    C J Snarzell Member

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    From the troublemakers I dealt with in the police, sadly there are a very small number of our society who are simply not deterred by laws or respect for general authorities we have in place.

    I'm sure Merseyrail will have many unpaid fines from people who have no intentions of paying them & the problem I had myself from cop world is tracing 'sofa surfers' who don't actually have a place of residence!!!

    CJ
     
  23. Saperstein

    Saperstein Member

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    Here’s some I took on 507019 tonight.

    Saperstein
     

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  24. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    If you had a shoe (or shoes) between the seats, the edges would clearly touch the fabric.

    Plus, if nothing else, it would make the metal dirty and put people off sitting there (assuming the seat must be dirty too).

    I can't see how anyone could attempt to argue that the metal is okay and doesn't count as having feet on the seats.
     
  25. PG

    PG Member

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    Now that I've seen the pictures I'd agree - feet on the floor please, thanks @Saperstein for posting them.
     

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