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Fixed Penalty Notice - advice please

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baffled

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Glad I found this place and would really appreciate some advice for the baffling situation I find myself in. Here's the situation:

- I'm a UK national but residing in Denmark. In July I flew home to visit family in West Yorkshire. I landed in Manchester Airport and got on the train there to Manchester Piccadilly and proceeded to walk from there to Manchester Victoria (there was no direct train from the airport to Manchester Victoria).
- At Manchester Victoria I bought a £25 ticket to Pontefract Monkhill and boarded the next train to Leeds. At Leeds I changed and boarded the train to Pontefract Monkhill.
- While on this train a conductor came through the carriage. I looked through my wallet and bag but could not find my ticket. After a brief look I said to the conductor that I couldn't find it and would buy another ticket. He kindly replied "You shouldn't have to pay again if you've already paid, let's fill out a lost ticket form." He sat down and patiently took my details. When I told him my address was in Denmark, he said you need to provide a UK address so I gave the address of my parents house. Afterwards, I thanked him sincerely and he let me continue the journey. He didn't give me any documentation, nor did he say he was reporting me for fare evasion. He seemed genuinely nice and even assisted me later when I nearly got off a stop too early.
- Weeks later my parents received a letter from Northern Rail saying "on X date you were spoken to by a member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of the Railway Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident." The letter asked me to provide an explanation. I was staggered - did the train conductor stitch me up? But after calming down I decided it must simply be a check of the facts he had submitted in the 'lost ticket form' and proceeded to reply giving the full explanation and attaching a screenshot of my bank account statement with a payment to Northern Rail (Danish Bank account with payment in Danish Krone).
- I have now received a follow up letter saying I am being charged a fixed penalty notice of £90, plus the original fare of £25 (again). After reading up I seem to understand that despite being able to prove I paid the fare of £25, I am guilty of not producing the ticket when travelling on the train. This seems unbelievably harsh given that losing a ticket while en route must be a common and easy thing to do, plus I am being charged twice for the journey itself. But the thing that really gets me is that the train conductor appears to have misled me into thinking he was helping me, when in fact he was reporting me. How can I be reported without even being informed of this or provided any documentation? I'm not even resident in the UK and he persuaded me to add a UK address. It seems pretty low.

I understand I have a right to appeal twice. The situation is so depressing that I'm not sure I can put myself through arguing my case twice more and still having to stump up £115 at the end. Is it worth trying or should I just pay and move on with life? One thing I can't stand is injustice and being misled in this way really gets my goat.

Thanks for any advice offered!
 
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R

RailUK Forums

Birmingham

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Yeah, they stitched you up. Staff are known to do this to avoid conflict from passengers being told they’re being reported (though you don’t sound the kind of person who would have lashed out at them).

As unfair as it is, they have you bang to rights in this situation as — as you correctly point out — the regulation is that you’re able to produce a ticket when asked, and so passengers who find themselves in this situation are usually advised just to pay up and learn the lesson the hard way.

The appeals to which you refer are for something specific called ‘Penalty Fares’, which is not what you have received. The sum you’ve been quoted is for Northern Trains to settle this matter ‘out of court’: if you do not pay, Northern can and probably will prosecute you in court, where they are likely to win.
 

baffled

New Member
Joined
15 Aug 2022
Messages
2
Location
Copenhagen
Yeah, they stitched you up. Staff are known to do this to avoid conflict from passengers being told they’re being reported (though you don’t sound the kind of person who would have lashed out at them).

As unfair as it is, they have you bang to rights in this situation as — as you correctly point out — the regulation is that you’re able to produce a ticket when asked, and so passengers who find themselves in this situation are usually advised just to pay up and learn the lesson the hard way.

The appeals to which you refer are for something specific called ‘Penalty Fares’, which is not what you have received. The sum you’ve been quoted is for Northern Trains to settle this matter ‘out of court’: if you do not pay, Northern can and probably will prosecute you in court, where they are likely to win.
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. I will pay up and move on. The members of this forum are doing a great service in helping uninformed people navigate through these often complex issues, and I salute you for giving up your time to provide advice. Thanks again.
 

gray1404

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3 Mar 2014
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6,577
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Merseyside
The reality is your parents could reply to the letter giving your address in Denmark. I think north and then drop the case.
 

Snow1964

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7 Oct 2019
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6,028
Location
West Wiltshire
The reality is your parents could reply to the letter giving your address in Denmark. I think north and then drop the case.

Or they could reply, saying you have moved to Denmark, and can they confirm won’t be sending anything further to them at their address.

If they don’t give your forwarding address, probably be dropped anyway, because it will be too much like hard work to sleuth and pursue it.

Incidently I think the inspector lied to you about you must give a UK address, if you were a tourist from another country you wouldn’t have been able to give one anyway.
 

AlterEgo

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Or they could reply, saying you have moved to Denmark, and can they confirm won’t be sending anything further to them at their address.

If they don’t give your forwarding address, probably be dropped anyway, because it will be too much like hard work to sleuth and pursue it.
It's not that hard work to post a letter to Denmark.
 

Doppelganger

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Joined
27 Jun 2011
Messages
398
It's not that hard work to post a letter to Denmark.
If I lived in Denmark and a letter arrived threatening prosecution, I would file it in the bin.

No one is going to pursue a private individual for debt outside the UK, especially post Brexit.
 

AlterEgo

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If I lived in Denmark and a letter arrived threatening prosecution, I would file it in the bin.

No one is going to pursue a private individual for debt outside the UK, especially post Brexit.
It's not a debt, it's just a Single Justice Procedure Notice to put you on the conveyor belt of criminal convictions, which is heard by a single magistrate with papers only in a few minutes. Doesn't matter if you live in Denmark or not.

No debt needs be recovered by the company. It would be inadvisable to file it in the bin, it'll just go through anyway with the mountain of other work the TOC has on.
 
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