Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[island]

Or Thursday Friday one week and Monday Tuesday Wednesday the next.

 

[STINT47]

If I was in charge of pricing at my local TOC I would make it eight days over five or preferably six weeks.

If this was the case I would buy one but as it is if I make seven journeys or nine over the current 28 days I'm out of pocket. Add in that the saving is fairly small and I cannot justify buying one as it stands.

 

[Meerkat]

If I was in charge of pricing at my local TOC I would make it eight days over five or preferably six weeks.

If this was the case I would buy one but as it is if I make seven journeys or nine over the current 28 days I'm out of pocket. Add in that the saving is fairly small and I cannot justify buying one as it stands.

Another reason why GBR and “ticket simplification” are bad things.
You get the DfT making a bad call and innovative TOCs aren’t allowed to do something better.

 

[TUC]

If I need to go to the office for 2 days one week and before 9.30 am, I would consider whether to go in 5 working days in a row and then not go in for another week or more.

If a company ever required 50% working in the office I would ask if it could be one week in and one week off. That would be better than 3 or 2 days at a time.

I think for many organisations such as where I work it is more a case of making sure team members have a chance to physically interact each week. Working in blocks week on/week off won't cut it.

On the other hand, once you are only travelling 7 times in 28 days, why does the railway need to offer any discount at all? People should be sufficiently clued up to work out how many times they are going into a workplace and how to plan around holidays.

If someone gets 'sent on a course' or has to go to a meeting, it won't automatically come out of their 'workplace time'.

Lots of jobs, including my own, involve meetings frequently being added or moved at a late stage. Nothing to do with being 'sufficiently clued up'.

 

[alistairlees]

Basically, a different product is needed. Flexi-season is not a very customer-centric product.

 

[infobleep]

I think for many organisations such as where I work it is more a case of making sure team members have a chance to physically interact each week. Working in blocks week on/week off won't cut it.


Lots of jobs, including my own, involve meetings frequently being added or moved at a late stage. Nothing to do with being 'sufficiently clued up'.

Where I work they are talking about having to agree a date when teams can meet so not everyone comes in at the same time. Obviously, with some working part-time, it needs to be flexible to an extent or people might never see colleagues.

What I don't agree with are arbitrary percentages where you must be in x days or hours each week No, you only go on x days or hours when it's right for the business and/or yourself.

I can't see myself being in 2 days a week for 4 weeks in a row. Now if it was 8 tickets over 3 months, that would be different and I might even consider it.

 

[DDB]

I think most (all?) of the carnet products that TOCs had introduced and have now withdrawn had a longer validity periods to use the tickets. It does seem an odd choice by the DfT to make such a niche product when it could make a perfectly decent product by going for 6 weeks rather than 4. Or even 10 days in 6 or 8 weeks which would make the discount easy to see as 10 times the anytime ticket price is easy to do in your head.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Another reason why GBR and “ticket simplification” are bad things.
You get the DfT making a bad call and innovative TOCs aren’t allowed to do something better.

You have conflated different things there. The DfT and Treasury are making all the calls of fares right now and that is a bad thing. Provided GBR is allowed the freedom to manage fares within an overall Government funding settlement then that has to be better. So-called 'innovative' TOCs are in receipt of Government funding right now and without a GBR middleman will never have the freedom you wish for.
A properly run GBR will have the ability to remove lots of ticket loopholes cause by rigid regulation and gamesmanship between TOCs taking chunks out of each other but that should mean a better, simpler buying experience for everyone. That should be the aim.

 

[py_megapixel]

Basically, a different product is needed. Flexi-season is not a very customer-centric product.

You've hit the nail on the head there. Flexi seasons are a stupendously daft idea. They do nothing that carnets couldn't while working out less flexible and more expensive.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Basically, a different product is needed. Flexi-season is not a very customer-centric product.

You've hit the nail on the head there. Flexi seasons are a stupendously daft idea. They do nothing that carnets couldn't while working out less flexible and more expensive.

The Flexi-ticket is basically a Carnet (using the 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck' analogy). Pricing of each unit and the length of time that a customer has to make use of each bundle (as well as other enhancements like a reduced rate for off peak travel) are all configurable within the existing product structure provided the political will is there.

 

[Ianno87]

In the world of buses Stagecoach have launched a trial of flexible tickets in Cambridge, the price/validity of which seems much more marketable than the rail offer.

Context: a Dayrider day ticket (for the city area) is £4.50, 7 Day Megarider is £15.

The Fleixble ticket is now on offer for £18 for 5 days, and £31.50 for 10 days. And valid for a full 12 months. It also offers additional validity on the Busway as far as St Ives.

That sort of discount/duration is what rail should really be aiming for, IMHO.

 

[P Binnersley]

At a speech today a Government minister has stated that 100,000 Flexible season tickets have been sold.

Seventh annual Rail Industry Forum

Latest updates on the Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail and the reform of the UK rail industry.

www.gov.uk

 

[Jurg]

At a speech today a Government minister has stated that 100,000 Flexible season tickets have been sold.

Seventh annual Rail Industry Forum

Latest updates on the Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail and the reform of the UK rail industry.

www.gov.uk

Assuming the vast majority have used them for commuting, so the average person using them would have bought multiple tickets. So perhaps with an average of 5 tickets bought per passenger there may be around 20,000 people who've used them.

It would be interesting to know how many of the carnet tickets that had been withdrawn on some routes to make way for the Flexi Season tickets would have been sold, had the change not occurred. There has to be some overlap there.

Don't get me wrong, 100,000 sales is a lot better than none, but it probably sounds a more impressive achievement than it is.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

At a speech today a Government minister has stated that 100,000 Flexible season tickets have been sold.

Seventh annual Rail Industry Forum

Latest updates on the Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail and the reform of the UK rail industry.

www.gov.uk

Less than impressive. How many standard annual season tickets were sold pre-pandemic and even currently.

We must be seen to be doing something, flexible season tickets are something.

Blame the punter for not buying rather than the seller for misjudging the market?

 

[ainsworth74]

Blame the punter for not buying rather than the seller for misjudging the market?

As far as I can tell the seller (as in the railway) probably did judge the market right. Just the product was kneecapped by the Treasury who demanded that the saving was just 10% compared to buying walk-up tickets. I'm sure I read somewhere that the industry had planned for the saving to be similar to an existing seven day season whilst the Treasury wanted an even less than 10% saving compared to buying walk-ups.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As far as I can tell the seller (as in the railway) probably did judge the market right. Just the product was kneecapped by the Treasury who demanded that the saving was just 10% compared to buying walk-up tickets. I'm sure I read somewhere that the industry had planned for the saving to be similar to an existing seven day season whilst the Treasury wanted an even less than 10% saving compared to buying walk-ups.

Fair enough.

Blame the string-pullers behind the seller. I haven't seen anything stating who decided on the level of discount. At the end of the day, HM Treasury controls everything, probably even the cancellations out of my imminent Morrisons order!

 

[ainsworth74]

I haven't seen anything stating who decided on the level of discount.

I am wracking my brains trying to recall where the heck I saw it. If I do remember I'll post a link!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am wracking my brains trying to recall where the heck I saw it. If I do remember I'll post a link!

No worries. It would be better covered by a media article so that history can properly record who decided what.

 

[ainsworth74]

No worries. It would be better covered by a media article so that history can properly record who decided what.

Aha it was from this article: https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/r...rates-as-treasury-takes-control/60218.article which was discussed at the time here on the Forum. But for our purposes this is the section that's relevant:

As lockdowns eased earlier this year, the operators and RDG started to present evidence to government intended to support development of a flexible season ticket aimed at commuters who were coming back to city centre workplaces fewer than five days per week. The operators suggested these tickets should come with savings on a par with a conventional season ticket, but this was rebuffed by the Treasury.

The final product, officially welcomed by operators but privately derided, offers a discount of around 10% and has been described by one source as ‘pretty much providing two tickets for the price of two’. Even this meagre discount was seen as a victory within the industry; in the lead up to its launch one insider had reported that Treasury officials wanted no more than a 5% incentive.

 

[Haywain]

Blame the punter for not buying rather than the seller for misjudging the market?

The only place I see any 'blame' being directed at anyone in that article.

 

[DDB]

I think the big problem is not the discount but the length of time you have to use the tickets. It is a very niche product because of this. I believe the products it replaced had a much better ratio of days of travel vs calander time you had to use them. It would be really interesting to see the repeat buisness figures to tell if they actually work for people.

 

[Haywain]

I think the big problem is not the discount but the length of time you have to use the tickets. It is a very niche product because of this. I believe the products it replaced had a much better ratio of days of travel vs calander time you had to use them. It would be really interesting to see the repeat buisness figures to tell if they actually work for people.

It's the price as well but they undoubtedly work for some people.

 

[plugwash]

Yes, if you are regularly commuting 3-4 days a week at peak times then at least on Stockport to Manchester the flexi-season makes sense.

If you are only commuting 2 days a week, then it still saves you money if you follow your pattern consistently every week, but it doesn't take much to swing the balance the other way. It's a similar story if you can commute off-peak on some proportion of days.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, if you are regularly commuting 3-4 days a week at peak times then at least on Stockport to Manchester the flexi-season makes sense.

I'm unsure if it could be considered value for money if you're able to use the Northern trains really. Almost every single train at every time of day has their Advance ticket at £2.20 available on it! Obviously to some people they'll want to save that extra few minutes.

 

[Haywain]

I'm unsure if it could be considered value for money if you're able to use the Northern trains really. Almost every single train at every time of day has their Advance ticket at £2.20 available on it! Obviously to some people they'll want to save that extra few minutes.

There are, however, many journeys where Advance fares are not available.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think the big problem is not the discount but the length of time you have to use the tickets. It is a very niche product because of this. I believe the products it replaced had a much better ratio of days of travel vs calander time you had to use them. It would be really interesting to see the repeat buisness figures to tell if they actually work for people.

I can see two sides to the argument. Most products that people buy have an expiry date - mobile data (use it or lose it monthly, perhaps with carry-over), food (it goes off), gift-cards (x months) - so people are quite used to the idea that things have to be used up in a certain time or lost. Conversely, we have an industry desperate to retain / claw-back lost customers - so making the time period so short seems counter intuitive. Perhaps, like postage stamps, 'travel' could be bought and used whenever, regardless of subsequent price increases. Buy 480 singles (the annual figure used for station usage statistics) for the price of an annual season. No revenue lost to the industry but use spread over a longer period, say 3 years validity. If people return to commuting full time, they use up the tickets sooner, if WFH restrictions return (as they will on Monday) they get used up slower. Not sure you would actually want a physical box handed to you with 480 cardboard tickets in it, but we do live in an electronic age.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can see two sides to the argument. Most products that people buy have an expiry date - mobile data (use it or lose it monthly, perhaps with carry-over), food (it goes off), gift-cards (x months) - so people are quite used to the idea that things have to be used up in a certain time or lost. Conversely, we have an industry desperate to retain / claw-back lost customers - so making the time period so short seems counter intuitive. Perhaps, like postage stamps, 'travel' could be bought and used whenever, regardless of subsequent price increases. Buy 480 singles (the annual figure used for station usage statistics) for the price of an annual season. No revenue lost to the industry but use spread over a longer period, say 3 years validity. If people return to commuting full time, they use up the tickets sooner, if WFH restrictions return (as they will on Monday) they get used up slower. Not sure you would actually want a physical box handed to you with 480 cardboard tickets in it, but we do live in an electronic age.

The infrastructure to support a product like this just isn't there, at least outside the South East.

 

[DDB]

I can see two sides to the argument. Most products that people buy have an expiry date - mobile data (use it or lose it monthly, perhaps with carry-over), food (it goes off), gift-cards (x months) - so people are quite used to the idea that things have to be used up in a certain time or lost. Conversely, we have an industry desperate to retain / claw-back lost customers - so making the time period so short seems counter intuitive. Perhaps, like postage stamps, 'travel' could be bought and used whenever, regardless of subsequent price increases. Buy 480 singles (the annual figure used for station usage statistics) for the price of an annual season. No revenue lost to the industry but use spread over a longer period, say 3 years validity. If people return to commuting full time, they use up the tickets sooner, if WFH restrictions return (as they will on Monday) they get used up slower. Not sure you would actually want a physical box handed to you with 480 cardboard tickets in it, but we do live in an electronic age.

It doesn't need to be a lot longer. 6 weeks rather than 4 would probably do. Then people who do 2 days a week in the office could use it without losing out when they have a week or two off.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The infrastructure to support a product like this just isn't there, at least outside the South East.

I'm not thinking of stored value cards (eg Oyster or equivalent) which require readers to scan in and out at every station (although those are being rolled out beyond the big cities). m-tickets or e-tickets will do the trick, requires a smart phone and a mobile signal (or download as pdf). Guards have the ability to scan such tickets in many places (not sure if every guard on every TOC yet). Whether you offer the cardboard version is debateable, perhaps the 'deal' for having a well priced product available is that it is only available electronically.

The risk, as with any e-product, is if the guard doesn't come round and check, and the user doesn't activate the ticket, they get a free ride. Handing out only 480 singles instead of the standard season offering unlimited journeys 24/7 will compensate for part of that loss, that is, the buyer of 480 singles instead of an annual season loses the ability to make multiple journeys on the same day (without using up another single ticket) and the same loss of benefit at weekends. I'm not sure what proportion of season ticket holders use their ticket beyond a standard 5 out and 5 return trips per week. I'm thinking of point-to-point seasons, not zonal products (travelcards) here.

There will, I assume, need to be some software development to allow the sale and storage of that volume of tickets rather than a handful, perhaps to allow a total number of tickets paid for to decrement with each use, perhaps 480 individually numbered tickets which, once user-activated expire after an amount of time has elapsed. Reader software used by guards will need to feedback to a central database.

In terms of availability, I would envisage them being made available on the same method of calculation as current season tickets, not just an annual version, so:
Monthly - x single tickets for the cost of a monthly season, but valid for 3 months
Quarterly - y tickets, valid for 9 months
Half-year - z tickets, valid for 18 months.
Essentially if you were to travel one day in three, whether evenly spread or bunched in blocks, you would use up the tickets purchased before their expiry.

 

[Wallsendmag]

For Season tickets by far the best solution is ITSO but you really need Gates or PVals to do it properly.