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Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

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Bletchleyite

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Arguably the way to do it is to make the fares higher but more convenient - ie single pricing PAYG, no break of journey, no capping, blanket peak morning and afternoon - where the single fare isn't set as half of the the current return fare - but the convenience means enough people don't notice they are paying more. It is no accident that this is where government and RDG policy is headed.

No one seems to grumble about the fares in London going up considerably between 4pm and 7pm in 2010 because it only affects people in outer London.

I certainly think one aspect of tap in tap out contactless PAYG is it completely stops you thinking about what the fare is. Which is only bringing it into line with cars, where because you just put fuel in periodically you tend not to think of the cost of an individual journey, just roughly how much you spend on fuel each month.
 
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Starmill

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No one seems to grumble about the fares in London going up considerably for certain journeys between 4pm and 7pm in 2010 because it only affects people in outer London and doesn't apply for travel into Zone 1.
That is true, plus it came with the quid pro quo that if you touch in at 0630 or just before you benefit from the off peak price on a train departing at or just after 0630. This can be an enormous boon, for example being able to arrive at London Paddington at around 0700 having paid the off peak price from Reading of £10.90. Less than half of the fare for an Anytime Day Single and less than a quarter of an Anytime Day Return. Overwhelmingly paper tickets don't offer an easement for very early services.
 

BluePenguin

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I certainly think one aspect of tap in tap out contactless PAYG is it completely stops you thinking about what the fare is. Which is only bringing it into line with cars, where because you just put fuel in periodically you tend not to think of the cost of an individual journey, just roughly how much you spend on fuel each month.
But this is not necessarily the case because you only don’t think about what fare you will be pay for the duration of the journey. As soon as people tap out they see the charge for their specific journey on the barrier and on their online account. In a car you don’t see the journey cost on the dashboard as you get out and this only applies to a taxi.

People often don’t realise fares vary throughout the day. They just tap in blissfully unaware of how much they will be charged and jump out of their skin in horror later on. Then they end up on here looking for answers. Tapping a card doesn’t feel like spending money.

When it comes to the car, people have a rough understanding of their cost per mile of fuel and can estimate their journey price based on distance. Driving a 15 mile journey at 6am costs the same at 1pm. You can leave whenever and pay the same. Trains are a completely different kettle of fish.

A rail journey of the same length at 6am could cost £8 while at 1pm only £3.50. Unless the railway moves to a fixed distance model, this won’t change. When using using as you go, unless you look up your fare before travel there is no telling how much you will pay. Even with London’s zonal fares system it gets confusing. Buying a ticket upfront is the only way of avoiding this.

In your example, filling up the car with £5,000 of fuel each year and traveling to and from work (same place and distance) would be akin to topping up a smart card of the same amount and travelling between the same 2 stations at the same times of day.
 
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JonathanH

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Unless the railway moves to a fixed distance model, this won’t change.
The railway most certainly isn't going to move to a fixed distance model. There are different market forces on different routes that need to be taken into account. Some routes twist and turn while others offer location pairings have multiple routes.

Buying a ticket upfront is the only way of avoiding this.
It is pretty apparent that people are happy with PAYG regardless of that point.
 

BluePenguin

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That is very true. Our fares are not priced on point to point distances as the crow flies but on a variety of different factors.

Are people happy with pay-as-you-go because it is quick, easy and convenient or because they are not price conscious?

These same people are likely jump into a black cab in disruption, tap their contactless card on the card machine as they get out without a care of the fare.

Anyone on a budget will look up the price for their journey in advance and decide whether to travel or not based on that. If they cannot afford the fare but must make the journey, they may travel anyway and hope for the best. Then when stopped pretend their key/oyster card is faulty hence no tap was recorded. This is one of the reasons why fare evasion is rife in certain areas.
 

Starmill

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Even enormous discrepancies don't seem to cause much bother. I've never heard of any complaints that a train from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway costs nearly four times as much one to South Ealing, despite them both being controlled entirely by TfL. Obviously I personally think that that's crackers, and implementing PAYG like that anywhere else would be ludicrous, but there it is. Perhaps almost eveyone paying £6.30 for a 9 mile trip simply never realises what it costs.
 

Bletchleyite

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Even enormous discrepancies don't seem to cause much bother. I've never heard of any complaints that a train from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway costs nearly four times as much one to South Ealing, despite them both being controlled entirely by TfL. Obviously I personally think that that's crackers, and implementing PAYG like that anywhere else would be ludicrous, but there it is. Perhaps almost eveyone paying £6.30 for a 9 mile trip simply never realises what it costs.

I'm going to venture the view that a higher proportion of people on here know exactly what the proverbial pint of milk and loaf of bread cost than in society generally. Most just won't pay any attention.
 

Andrew1395

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If you think that the average full time working year is 230 days. You need commuting products of three types. Any 230 days a year (annual); any 100 days in 12 months (a flexible); buy and go (a daily).

season tickets are really designed around payment schedules. You pay upfront and the advantages to the railway of getting your cash upfront is reflected back to you as a discount. Pay for more, earlier, you get a big discount. So an annual costs you less than 12 monthlies.

What you need for rail travel to work is some sort of subscription system that allows to pay after not before travel. The price and discount is governed by your usage. That is the trick. How can I buy a 100 tickets a year and not pay upfront, and get a discount compared to someone only buying 50 tickets a year.

oddly many commercial transactions do not give you discount for buying more over a year, but you do get discounts for buying in bulk upfront.

My council tax is more than my season ticket. It’s gone up nearly 4% from April, despite a pay freeze for staff. I pay by direct debit ten payments a year, and get a single person discount. Like travel to work it’s a distressed payment, but spreading the cost for a year with ten payments seems better than having to buy an annual season and front the cost upfront.
 
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BluePenguin

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Even enormous discrepancies don't seem to cause much bother. I've never heard of any complaints that a train from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway costs nearly four times as much one to South Ealing, despite them both being controlled entirely by TfL. Obviously I personally think that that's crackers, and implementing PAYG like that anywhere else would be ludicrous, but there it is. Perhaps almost eveyone paying £6.30 for a 9 mile trip simply never realises what it costs.
In an ideal world, the railway should be a lot more transparent with the public about the different fare options on offer. That way everyone would be able to make an informed choice based on their needs and budget. Although they won't as that would reduce revenue and they would like people to pay more. If people are fine with paying the first price they see then fair enough. Although ignorance really is not bliss and can come at huge price. Especially when it comes to Heathrow Airport, but let's keep that can of worms firmly shut. Those savvy enough to find savings will pay less and those who aren't, won't. But does that make it right? Ethically and morally no, but commercially and legally yes.

In more normal times, I wonder how many season ticket holders were aware of how many £££ they could save by swapping to daily tickets, pay as you go, travelcards etc. These flexible season tickets are a very good start to addressing this long standing issue, personally I am all for them
 
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AM9

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... Are people happy with pay-as-you-go because it is quick, easy and convenient or because they are not price conscious? ...

Some people may be happy with PAYG (using a system where you are not told the cost until you have incurred the charge and the TOC has taken that sum from your account). Many are not. I will happily pay for goods in a supermarket with contactless credit/debit card, because I authorise the transaction after I've been informed of the cost. I've only used contactless on TfL services a few times but I knew how much would be debited before presenting it. Getting a paper, or printed e-ticket is no problem and I rarely have any problems with them.
 

PG

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Some people may be happy with PAYG (using a system where you are not told the cost until you have incurred the charge and the TOC has taken that sum from your account). Many are not.
Using that analogy many people would not be happy with using taxis as like PAYG you don't know the cost of your journey until you have completed it. I'm not saying that the cost of a journey shouldn't be available prior to undertaking it but that it may not be as much of a deterrent as you think. Personally I like to know in advance and so, as you mention, paper tickets have the advantage in that respect. I suspect however that most people find the convenience of using PAYG worth not knowing their fare in advance.
 

plugwash

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Even enormous discrepancies don't seem to cause much bother. I've never heard of any complaints that a train from Heathrow Airport to Ealing Broadway costs nearly four times as much one to South Ealing, despite them both being controlled entirely by TfL. Obviously I personally think that that's crackers, and implementing PAYG like that anywhere else would be ludicrous, but there it is. Perhaps almost eveyone paying £6.30 for a 9 mile trip simply never realises what it costs.
AUIU It's quite common around the world for public transport to/from airports to have a surcharge, because it functions effectively as a "tourist tax".

What makes Heathrow unusual is that the heavy rail service has a surcharge but the underground service does not.
 

Ianno87

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In an ideal world, the railway should be a lot more transparent with the public about the different fare options on offer. That way everyone would be able to make an informed choice based on their needs and budget. Although they won't as that would reduce revenue and they would like people to pay more. If people are fine with paying the first price they see then fair enough. Although ignorance really is not bliss and can come at huge price. Especially when it comes to Heathrow Airport, but let's keep that can of worms firmly shut. Those savvy enough to find savings will pay less and those who aren't, won't. But does that make it right? Ethically and morally no, but commercially and legally yes.

In more normal times, I wonder how many season ticket holders were aware of how many £££ they could save by swapping to daily tickets, pay as you go, travelcards etc. These flexible season tickets are a very good start to addressing this long standing issue, personally I am all for them

Arguably no different to how Tesco won't tell you when you can buy tins of baked beans cheaper in Asda. Is that "unethical"?
 

Hadders

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Try finding out how much a bus fare is before boarding (whatever payment method you use). Practically impossible....
 

AM9

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Using that analogy many people would not be happy with using taxis as like PAYG you don't know the cost of your journey until you have completed it. I'm not saying that the cost of a journey shouldn't be available prior to undertaking it but that it may not be as much of a deterrent as you think. Personally I like to know in advance and so, as you mention, paper tickets have the advantage in that respect. I suspect however that most people find the convenience of using PAYG worth not knowing their fare in advance.
The fare paid on a taxi (as in a hackney cab) is displayed throughout the journey, and extras are displayed on notices. So at the point of paying, the cost is visible to the payer. Non hackney drivers usually declare the cost at the beginning of the journey, - I've never used an unlicensed car, (e.g. Uber) so I'm not familiar with how that works. But in general terms, the taxi analogy is nothing like a PAYG gateline where the price is only revealed to tell you how much your bank account has been depleted.
 

infobleep

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Try finding out how much a bus fare is before boarding (whatever payment method you use). Practically impossible....
I got caught out in Glasgow where they didn't even tell you, the bus didn't give change. I think that was underhand myself. It my have been in some poster in very small print. This was in 2013.

As for Oyster and contactless. On some gatelines in London they don't have a screen with the ticket price showing when you tap.

I always resented the fact one could buy a monthly season ticket between Guildford and Haywards Heath but if I wished to travel on a Wednesday evening and return on the Thursday morning, once a week, 48 times a year, no discount existed.

A flexible season ticket wouldn't help here either, as I'd need two days, whilst only making one journey per each day.
 

Starmill

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AUIU It's quite common around the world for public transport to/from airports to have a surcharge, because it functions effectively as a "tourist tax".

What makes Heathrow unusual is that the heavy rail service has a surcharge but the underground service does not.
It is relatively common, but in this case it's not targeted towards tourists really at all, as bus and London Underground services are priced effectively the same as anywhere else in London, and Heathrow Express with commercial fares is sometimes cheaper than TfL Rail because of their offers, discounts or buy in advance deals. Tourists are therefore not necessarily paying the premium. In this case the price is just driven by one tunnel's specific amortisation costs, which is clearly a really inefficient way to operate compared to paying for investment centrally and spreading the amortisation cost over a wide area and a long time period. It would also come with operational advantages to TfL if more Heathrow passengers used it's TfL Rail services in place of London Underground because that would create a virtual capacity increase on the Piccadilly line, but the perverse incentives are too deeply-rooted. Anyway there are plenty of other examples, such as the Zone 1 mixed mode premium, using a train between London St Pancras and Stratford International, or cases where an Off Peak Day Return ticket is cheaper than PAYG. I just picked up on Heathrow as an example, and a very large price discrepancy.
 

JamesT

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My council tax is more than my season ticket. It’s gone up nearly 4% from April, despite a pay freeze for staff. I pay by direct debit ten payments a year, and get a single person discount. Like travel to work it’s a distressed payment, but spreading the cost for a year with ten payments seems better than having to buy an annual season and front the cost upfront.
Off-topic, but are you aware that you have the right to request to pay in 12 instalments rather than 10 for council tax? Spreading it more equally across all the months makes the finances easier to manage.
 

Starmill

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You can also avoid the uplift for TfL Rail by buying two outboundary travelcards, one for the outward and one for the return. It's a bit bizarre, really.
Yup. And then of course you also have the ability to use a Network Railcard discount from most places nearby which you cannot use on PAYG.
 

BRX

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News reports today are suggesting that the carnet tickets will end up more expensive than regular tickets for 3 days a week or more.

Is that true? I generally don't trust journalists to be capable of understanding ticket cost stuff; it's so often reported wrongly.
 

thedbdiboy

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If you read the Telegraph article that appears to be the source, it claims this might be the case for some MONTHLY Season Ticket purchases. I suspect this refers to some of the Intercity monthly seasons that are priced at very low multipliers of the day rate. In which case the obvious answer is not to offer a flexi ticket for these flows, because the monthly is already so discounted that it is already in effect designed for part time commuting.
 

JonathanH

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If you read the Telegraph article that appears to be the source, it claims this might be the case for some MONTHLY Season Ticket purchases. I suspect this refers to some of the Intercity monthly seasons that are priced at very low multipliers of the day rate. In which case the obvious answer is not to offer a flexi ticket for these flows, because the monthly is already so discounted that it is already in effect designed for part time commuting.
As previously discussed, it will also be the case for some weekly season tickets - eg Winchester to London - where the weekly season ticket multiple of anytime day returns is under 2.

A carnet is already available on this route offering 10 day returns in two months at a saving of 5% on buying 10 anytime day returns.

The railway will need to communicate to its users that some season tickets are already priced at a large discount.
 

AM9

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As previously discussed, it will also be the case for some weekly season tickets - eg Winchester to London - where the weekly season ticket multiple of anytime day returns is under 2.

A carnet is already available on this route offering 10 day returns in two months at a saving of 5% on buying 10 anytime day returns.

The railway will need to communicate to its users that some season tickets are already priced at a large discount.
That might irk some leisure travellers who need to take Anytime tickets for some of their journeys.
 

Paul Kelly

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I think the right answer is for the carnets to be priced relative to the weekly season price, rather than relative to the anytime day return price as most carnets have been up to now. If they can manage that it should minimise the number of anomalies.
 

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The railway will need to communicate to its users that some season tickets are already priced at a large discount.
Another interpretation would be that the season ticket is the "undiscounted" price and the Anytime ticket is simply a ripoff... Which is the interpretation that many members of the public will, quite reasonably in my view, hold.

Flexible working will also mean that many commuters may now have the choice of travelling when Off-Peak tickets are valid. So, if part time season tickets are not available (or worthwhile), the railway will simply be carrying fresh air around on "peak" time services.

This was already quite apparent pre-Covid on a number of intercity services out of London in the evening peak...
 

Bletchleyite

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Another interpretation would be that the season ticket is the "undiscounted" price and the Anytime ticket is simply a ripoff... Which is the interpretation that many members of the public will, quite reasonably in my view, hold.

Most people take the line that the Off Peak walk up fare is the "undiscounted" price, which tends to be about where season ticket prices sit per day based on 5 days in most cases. The Anytime fare, particularly on InterCity operations, is set at a premium/price gouging level in a lot of places.

Because cars are relevant to most journeys too, the price of fuel plus parking is going to be where most people start in determining what's reasonable, FWIW. And even for London that is in most cases lower than the Anytime (Day) Return by some considerable margin.

Even TfL recognised this with Oyster. Paper walk-up tickets were set at a very high rate (and still are) - £5 zone 1 single, isn't it? - and that is an unreasonable rate intended to deter use of that ticket. Oyster/contactless fares are set much more reasonably. Anytime tickets in commuter areas are priced to encourage season ticket use, not to be a reasonable fare for that journey.
 

JonathanH

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Anytime tickets in commuter areas are priced to encourage season ticket use, not to be a reasonable fare for that journey.
I suspect that has nothing to do with it. Season tickets and anytime tickets in London and the South East are regulated - it is partly a function of what British Rail did and probably a desire to make money from one-off business travellers who aren't paying for themselves.

I guess that some of the price increases happened during the fares basket period.
 
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