Flooding Disruption 31 July/1 August

[Robertj21a]

Put simply, the safest thing to do is to ALWAYS close the railway then arses are covered.

Instead, people who are paid good money should be making rational decisions based on the evidence rather than arse covering.

Despite 20 pumps working flat out for the previous day and a half, that was the level in the Goyt yesterday. If things get worse, by all means reassess the situation.

By the way, I love your thought that Canal and River Trust know what they are doing engineering wise!

Do you know much about the Canal and River Trust, its origins, personnel etc ?

 

[Jozhua]

Attempting to travel today between Derby area and Manchester, stupidly didn't check before travelling and then I would've gone via Stoke...

Anyway, got off at Sheffield, the conductor recommended going via Leeds, so I'm on a Northern Pacer to Leeds. The train I was going to go on from Leeds to Manchester has been cancelled, which is even more fun!

Update: finally on my way to Manchester, ticket acceptance between Sheffield and Manchester going via Leeds.

My 3rd consecutive trip that will have a full delay repay refund!

 

[furnessvale]

Do you know much about the Canal and River Trust, its origins, personnel etc ?

As a boat owner of many years, both professionally and as a hobby I have studied the actions of BW and CRT for a long time.

I have witnessed much asset stripping, loss of qualified personnel and slipping maintenance standards etc, so, yes, I know a bit.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think some posters have little conception of the destructive energy released by a dam breach. This compilation of videos of the recent tragic event in Brumadinho, Brazil is sobering.

A million tonnes of water falling 50m from the Toddbrook reservoir would gain kinetic energy of roughly 500GJ, more than the energy in 100 tonnes of TNT or 10000 litres of petrol. The neat red area on the EA map likely shows the best estimate of the extent of total devastation, within the limitations of the modelling tools used. But the road closures, extending down the valley through Furness Vale and New Mills, suggest that the experts fear that significant flooding damage could extend over a much larger area in the worst case scenario.

 

[DanTrain]

A few updates etc

Unless I’ve read it wrong the national Rail site totally ignores the Transpenine Sheffield - Huddersfield - Manchester Picc service.


The press are quoting the police as saying they hope to get the residents back into homes by end of week

Therefore the hope valley will have been without a service for a week.


Surely as others have said a rail service should be run if only one train every two hours terminating at Edale

Replacement bus service should be ok - subject to finding vehicles - as the hope valley bus services have been running.

The easiest option would be rail rep all stations to hope , may need to close part of car park so buses can turn round.

Mini bus shuttle to Edale - there is a tight/ narrow bridge where you can get full size Coaches over BUT it’s a very presise art - local drivers can do it but it’s difficult easier to use a mini bus shuttle , like on the standed pre planned hope valley closure.


Another alternative for Edale is to arrange ticket acceptance on the Stagecoach H1/H2 summer only service that includes Hope - Edale

To be fair, Dore, Hathersage, Bamford and Hope are all on a regular bus service anyway, so ticket acceptance on the 97/98 (Dore) and 272 (others) would suffice . Bizarrely NRE advertises ticket acceptance on the 273/4/5, which are infrequent and run via Yorkshire Bridge to Hope and Bamford where the 272 is more frequent and quicker!? Grindleford needs some replacement buses really, just a shuttle to Sheffield would do (serving it as part of a service to Hope is always a bit of a pain anyway due to the road geography). Edale clearly needs a minibus from Hope/Castleton, currently it’s pretty much cut off by public transport in the middle of the summer holidays...not great!

I don’t quite see why EMT can’t run a 158 shuttle from Sheffield to Chinley and back, they call at all the stations regularly so I don’t see the problem beyond lack of initiative?

 

[daodao]

I don’t quite see why EMT can’t run a 158 shuttle from Sheffield to Chinley and back, they call at all the stations regularly so I don’t see the problem beyond lack of initiative?

Edale clearly needs a minibus from Hope/Castleton, currently it’s pretty much cut off by public transport in the middle of the summer holidays...not great!

I agree. Wrong line working would be required for a short distance into Chinley station, but surely that isn't impossible. A bus connection could be laid on to run from Chinley to Hyde and Manchester Piccadilly via Hollingworth.

Stagecoach are running a special summer bus service from Hope/Castleton to Edale (route H2) daily until 31st August.

 

[nr758123]

They have been running most of the day yesterday, and are planned to run most of the day today too, going via Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate. They just extend the normal Piccadilly to Huddersfield stoppers.

It makes sense to do this in present circumstances. It would make even more sense if TPEs advice for passengers between Sheffield and Manchester was changed from "do not travel" or "travel via Leeds" to let passengers know that there's an hourly through service between Sheffield and Manchester.

 

[Llanigraham]

Put simply, the safest thing to do is to ALWAYS close the railway then arses are covered.

Instead, people who are paid good money should be making rational decisions based on the evidence rather than arse covering.

Despite 20 pumps working flat out for the previous day and a half, that was the level in the Goyt yesterday. If things get worse, by all means reassess the situation.

By the way, I love your thought that Canal and River Trust know what they are doing engineering wise!

And that is exactly what they are doing, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Greybeard33]

I agree. Wrong line working would be required for a short distance into Chinley station, but surely that isn't impossible. A bus connection could be laid on to run from Chinley to Hyde and Manchester Piccadilly via Hollingworth.

Stagecoach are running a special summer bus service from Hope/Castleton to Edale (route H2) daily until 31st August.

The High Peak 190 service is running between Chinley station and Buxton, so ticket acceptance on that would enable Manchester passengers to connect with the Northern replacement bus between Buxton and Macclesfield.

 

[daodao]

The High Peak 190 service is running between Chinley station and Buxton, so ticket acceptance on that would enable Manchester passengers to connect with the Northern replacement bus between Buxton and Macclesfield.

That would be an extremely roundabout route, and in any case route 190 is infrequent between Buxton and Chinley and indirect (it runs via Peal Forest).

While no public transport can run into the "at risk" area, Northern Fail are doing little to help their other inconvenienced passengers to/from destinations not affected by the emergency.

 

[Greybeard33]

That would be an extremely roundabout route, and in any case route 190 is infrequent between Buxton and Chinley and indirect (it runs via Peal Forest).

While no public transport can run into the "at risk" area, Northern Fail are doing little to help their other inconvenienced passengers to/from destinations not affected by the emergency.

I would not wish to defend Northern's woeful performance in failing to provide replacement services to the stations on the Hope Valley line. However, a replacement bus from Chinley to Glossop via Hayfield, to connect with the trains on the Hadfield line, would also be a very slow route into Manchester. Due to the A6 closure, High Peak has been diverting its Skyline 199 service along the A624 and A626 via Glossop and Marple, and has warned of severe delays and cancellations caused by congestion. Glossop can be a traffic nightmare in normal times, even without all the diverted traffic going that way.

 

[30907]

If things get worse, by all means reassess the situation.

Things getting worse means the dam going - in which case it will be a little late.
While the chances of a train being caught in the flood, or on an undermined bridge, may be small, the prospect of two (even three) crowded trains being stranded either side of the emergency blockage, and needing to be evacuated, is real. With nearly all roads upstream of Strines already closed, and the emergency services already dealing with a dam breach, it's not a scenario the emergency planners will look forward to.
Meanwhile, we pray and hope while others work to ensure it doesn't happen.

 

[thenorthern]

I noticed that the trains on the Crewe to Derby line are running as 4 coach Class 158s rather than the normal single Class 153s I would assume its to cope with the extra passenger numbers due to the disruption on the Hope Valley Line.

 

[323 Class]

What's the status of the aggregate trains from Buxton? I know they can go towards Sheffield via hope but I cant think of a route towards Manchester other than through the Calder Valley after crossing the Pennines twice.

 

[DanTrain]

Stagecoach are running a special summer bus service from Hope/Castleton to Edale (route H2) daily until 31st August.

Didn’t know about that! In which case, if Northern were feeling lazy they could put ticket acceptance on that and the somwhat infrequent 65 to Grindleford (plus the aforementioned others) and leave it at that (something must run to Chinley, is it the 199 Skyline?). And yet the only acceptance (according to NRE) is the 273/4/5 and that seems to have come from EMT!?

 

[323 Class]

Didn’t know about that! In which case, if Northern were feeling lazy they could put ticket acceptance on that and the somwhat infrequent 65 to Grindleford (plus the aforementioned others) and leave it at that (something must run to Chinley, is it the 199 Skyline?). And yet the only acceptance (according to NRE) is the 273/4/5 and that seems to have come from EMT!?

190 service runs through Chinley but Whaley is the Destination from what I can see.

 

[PHILIPE]

What's the status of the aggregate trains from Buxton? I know they can go towards Sheffield via hope but I cant think of a route towards Manchester other than through the Calder Valley after crossing the Pennines twice.

There is a separate thread here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/buxton-stone-trains.182514/#post-4137805

 

[daodao]

I would not wish to defend Northern's woeful performance in failing to provide replacement services to the stations on the Hope Valley line. However, a replacement bus from Chinley to Glossop via Hayfield, to connect with the trains on the Hadfield line, would also be a very slow route into Manchester. Due to the A6 closure, High Peak has been diverting its Skyline 199 service along the A624 and A626 via Glossop and Marple, and has warned of severe delays and cancellations caused by congestion. Glossop can be a traffic nightmare in normal times, even without all the diverted traffic going that way.

I suggested previously a non-stop bus from Chinley to Hyde to provide connections onto the Manchester-Marple trains, and then non-stop to Manchester Piccadilly. There is a main road (A6016) bypassing Glossop town centre.

190 service runs through Chinley but Whaley is the Destination from what I can see.

High Peak buses have curtailed the service at Chinley as the road beyond there is closed, but there are only 5 buses per day (excluding Sundays) from Chinley to Buxton, and the route is roundabout.

 

[sheff1]

It must be me, but its seems that some on here are quite oblivious to the very real dangers that still exist anywhere near the dam. It's as if running some trains is a far more important issue.

Crazy.

Can you detail the real dangers which exist between Sheffield and Hope please.

.. the fact that the stopping service is operated entirely from the Manchester end means that Northern would have to source crews and units at Sheffield.

Three units were stabled in the centre road at Sheffield station all day yesterday, more than enough to provide a shuttle service to Hope.

 

[bb21]

Now now people. Understandably this is a rather personal situation for some, so emotions can run high, but there is no need to get personal, please.

 

[muz379]

Three units were stabled in the centre road at Sheffield station all day yesterday, more than enough to provide a shuttle service to Hope.

Might not be enough miles on them before needing an exam or fuel in them for hours of running .

Of course you then have to taxi west crews over and back which is essentially 3 hours of their day in a taxi , plus a pnb , dependent on how long a circuit took you might only be able to get one or two trips out of each set of crew you taxi over . Of course you will also be depleting spare train crew resources because there isn't to my knowled any crew diagrams with just hope valley trips on so anyone with a hope valley trip in their diagram will have other work before or after it so wont be available for the timely journey to Sheffield to do one shuttle and get a taxi back .

 

[TC60054]

Three units were stabled in the centre road at Sheffield station all day yesterday, more than enough to provide a shuttle service to Hope.

And what would you do about crews? What about on Monday morning when there's no spare units at Sheffield?

 

[Greybeard33]

I suggested previously a non-stop bus from Chinley to Hyde to provide connections onto the Manchester-Marple trains, and then non-stop to Manchester Piccadilly. There is a main road (A6016) bypassing Glossop town centre.

It is the A6016 that is the problem in my experience - it can be stop-start all the way to the traffic lights in Mottram. It would be much quicker to get the train to Piccadilly from Glossop or Dinting station than try and get a bus through the traffic all the way to Hyde Central. And the DMUs from Hyde are certainly not non-stop to Piccadilly. Stopping patterns vary, but they all call at Guide Bridge and Gorton, plus a selection from Hyde North, Fairfield and Ashburys. The Glossop/Hadfield EMUs mostly skip Fairfield and Gorton.

 

[daodao]

It is the A6016 that is the problem in my experience - it can be stop-start all the way to the traffic lights in Mottram. It would be much quicker to get the train to Piccadilly from Glossop or Dinting station than try and get a bus through the traffic all the way to Hyde Central. And the DMUs from Hyde are certainly not non-stop to Piccadilly. Stopping patterns vary, but they all call at Guide Bridge and Gorton, plus a selection from Hyde North, Fairfield and Ashburys. The Glossop/Hadfield EMUs mostly skip Fairfield and Gorton.

I meant that the bus should call at Hyde Central (to provide intermediate connections), but then continue non-stop to Manchester Piccadilly. I am well aware of the persistent congestion at the Hollingworth (Gun Inn) junction, which is a bottleneck, so running to Glossop station is an alternative, although Glossop town centre is also extremely congested.

 

[daodao]

Might not be enough miles on them before needing an exam or fuel in them for hours of running .

Of course you then have to taxi west crews over and back which is essentially 3 hours of their day in a taxi , plus a pnb , dependent on how long a circuit took you might only be able to get one or two trips out of each set of crew you taxi over . Of course you will also be depleting spare train crew resources because there isn't to my knowled any crew diagrams with just hope valley trips on so anyone with a hope valley trip in their diagram will have other work before or after it so wont be available for the timely journey to Sheffield to do one shuttle and get a taxi back .

It is a nonsense to run the Hope valley local trains solely with Manchester-based staff. I am sure that the EM franchise would provide a better service than Northern Fail, and don't understand why it is being thrown off the Manchester-Nottingham route or prevented from serving Birmingham New Street.

 

[muz379]

It is a nonsense to run the Hope valley local trains solely with Manchester-based staff. I am sure that the EM franchise would provide a better service than Northern Fail, and don't understand why it is being thrown off the Manchester-Nottingham route or prevented from serving Birmingham New Street.

That may well be the case , but It is the facts of the situation , and not something that can be changed quickly enough to start providing shuttles whilst the new mills end/chinley of the line is blocked .

 

[edwin_m]

It is a nonsense to run the Hope valley local trains solely with Manchester-based staff. I am sure that the EM franchise would provide a better service than Northern Fail, and don't understand why it is being thrown off the Manchester-Nottingham route or prevented from serving Birmingham New Street.

With the split of the Liverpool-Norwich at Nottingham, EMR will have no presence at Sheffield except for the London trains. Giving them Hope Valley would be far more of an isolated outpost than it is for Northern, so probably still the first to be cancelled when someone is short of trains or crews. Operationally speaking the Sheffield service is an extension of the Manchester suburban network so it makes sense to keep it with the same operator. The issue with Northern may be that although they stable trains in Sheffield there is only space for a few and they have to go somewhere else for maintenance.

 

[Llanigraham]

Seen confirmation on another forum that the lines are closed due to damage to the bridge sensors on the piers and these cannot be accessed at the moment due to the high water levels in the river.

 

[Greybeard33]

High Peak buses have curtailed the [190] service at Chinley as the road beyond there is closed, but there are only 5 buses per day (excluding Sundays) from Chinley to Buxton, and the route is roundabout.

Northern could extend its Macclesfield to Buxton replacement buses to Chinley, calling at Dove Holes and Chapel. This would also be useful for those evacuated from Whaley Bridge, some of whom are accommodated at Buxton. Slow, but much better than no public transport at all.

It is patently untrue that road closures prevent replacement transport at these stations, as Northern has claimed.

 

[daodao]

With the split of the Liverpool-Norwich at Nottingham, EMR will have no presence at Sheffield except for the London trains. Giving them Hope Valley would be far more of an isolated outpost than it is for Northern, so probably still the first to be cancelled when someone is short of trains or crews. Operationally speaking the Sheffield service is an extension of the Manchester suburban network so it makes sense to keep it with the same operator. The issue with Northern may be that although they stable trains in Sheffield there is only space for a few and they have to go somewhere else for maintenance.

Northern Fail's operating area should be downsized. IMO, it would be logical and create more coherent operating areas to transfer the following services from Sheffield to the EM franchise:
Sheffield-Worksop-Lincoln/Gainsborough (& occasional to Cleethorpes)
Sheffield-Doncaster-Scunthorpe-Cleethorpes (with locals terminating at Scunthorpe)
Sheffield-Hope Valley and beyond (all services, fast and slow)
Sheffield-Nottingham and beyond (all services) and any extensions to Leeds

The remaining ex-GC suburban services in the SE of Greater Manchester (to Glossop and Marple Rose Hill) should be converted to Metrolink, with the Hope Valley locals run by EMT via Hyde to Piccadilly, together with M-F peak hour extras between New Mills Central and Piccadilly via Hyde.

Northern could extend its Macclesfield to Buxton replacement buses to Chinley, calling at Dove Holes and Chapel. This would also be useful for those evacuated from Whaley Bridge, some of whom are accommodated at Buxton. Slow, but much better than no public transport at all. It is patently untrue that road closures prevent replacement transport at these stations, as Northern has claimed.

Completely roundabout. It is much quicker by road from Chinley to Manchester via the M67 than via the Cat and Fiddle.