Flows where a Route restricted fare is higher than Any Permitted

[b0b]

Please post your example here

Your example is ideal if the restricted route is a permitted route according to the ATOC routeing maps.

 

[Deerfold]

Please post your example here

Your example is ideal if the restricted route is a permitted route according to the ATOC routeing maps.

Did you have any in mind?

 

[b0b]

Did you have any in mind?

no, I'm trying to test some code. The routeing guide says (I think) that if a routed ticket has a higher fare than a 'any permitted' ticket, then you may not travel that route via the 'any permitted' ticket...

 

[tony_mac]

There are loads!

Huyton to Chester is one example. Oddly, the eastcoast booking engine allows travel via Wigan only on the higher-priced route Warrington fare.

Also, Manchester to Reading is interesting - none of the booking engines will sell an Any Permitted ticket for travel via London.
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then you may not travel that route via the 'any permitted' ticket.

As I recall, it says that in one of the examples, but is contradicted in other parts of the routeing guide.

Manchester to Reading is the only case I know of where this is implemented, but there are lots where it isn't.

 

[Railjet]

This one we had somewhere recently:

Nottingham - Lichfield City, but only Off-Peak Return, and Anytime First Day Return.

 

[b0b]

This one we had somewhere recently:

Nottingham - Lichfield City, but only Off-Peak Return, and Anytime First Day Return.

Oh that's a good catch, so the route you may take may be restricted by the ticket you buy.... hmmm, didn't think of that!!!

I think it makes doing the fares check easier though.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

no, I'm trying to test some code. The routeing guide says (I think) that if a routed ticket has a higher fare than a 'any permitted' ticket, then you may not travel that route via the 'any permitted' ticket...

I can't access the routeing guide atm, but I think you have mis-read it. My understanding is that an 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid on any route permitted by the guide, but is not valid on OTHER routes for which a higher fare applies.

 

[tony_mac]

Example 3 says

If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester.

But, the examples are mostly wrong and out of date, and contradict things said in other parts of the routeing guide (or even contradicting something in the same example!).

 

[LexyBoy]

I can't access the routeing guide atm, but I think you have mis-read it. My understanding is that an 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid on any route permitted by the guide, but is not valid on OTHER routes for which a higher fare applies.

I think so too. IIRC the Bristol-Oxford 'Any Permitted' is routed with a change at Didcot, but there is a 'Route: Reading' ticket which allows changing at Reading and doubling-back to Oxford.

I've travelled Reading-Minfford on an 'Any Permitted' ticket, which was quite a bit cheaper than the 'Route: Birmingham' ticket. Obviously I went through Birmingham (as advised by NRE for this ticket). In this case the higher priced, restricted fare is doubly redundant since travelling via Birmingham is about the only way to do it...

 

[b0b]

We (as a group) should write our own Routeing Guide and try and approximate what we think it says... what do you think?

what a crazy world

 

[tony_mac]

The routeing guide is often not logically consistent.

Routes via Banbury and Coventry fail the route test for doubling back at Leamington.

...so you can't travel via a routeing point if it involves doubling back....

But the journey is valid on direct trains from
Stratford-upon-Avon to Birmingham and from Birmingham to Solihull.

...wait, so you can double back, as long as it is through Tyseley....
However

Changing at Tyseley is not permitted

The railway gets hundreds of millions of pounds in subsidy, but they can't manage to employ one decent person, for even a couple of months, to sort out this abomination.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

To be fair, I think the original Routeing Guide worked well, but the evolution it has gone through means it makes less sense. I will check to see if the examples used now are the original ones adapted to suit the new maps at some point tomorrow.

 

[Lampshade]

Manchester to London SVR is more expensive route Chesterfield yet it's permitted anyway

 

[John @ home]

Manchester to London SVR is more expensive route Chesterfield yet it's permitted anyway

But Mon-Fri the £66.20 SVR Manchester - London route Any Permitted is valid on trains arriving St Pancras at or after 1129, while the £90 SVR Manchester - London route Chesterfield is valid on trains arriving St Pancras at or after 1005.

 

[krus_aragon]

The railway gets hundreds of millions of pounds in subsidy, but they can't manage to employ one decent person, for even a couple of months, to sort out this abomination.

How be we introduce the Clear English Society to the routeing guide?

 

[cuccir]

When the thing has easements such as

"10013
Routeing via Carlisle for Edinburgh (and north/west thereof) to Newcastle (and south thereof).This easement is to allow for engineering works at weekends up until and inclusive of 09/10/2005. This easement is in both directions"

You know it needs a bit of TLC. BTW, I'm not criticising the easement, which makes sense as engineering work or other delays (flooding etc) can often affect the ECML north of Newcastle, but the reference to engineering work carried out five years ago is symptomatic of how little attention this document has clearly received.

 

[Greenback]

I believe that the RG was a necessity when it first came out, as a way of protecting passenger interests. However, it;s always been complicated, cumbersome and confusing, due, in part, to the complicated network of routes. That is not to say it can;t be improved, but there seems to be a lack of willingness (and resources) to get to grips with it properly.

ATOC could do itself a lot of favours by sorting out the inconsistencies in both the Routeing Guide and the NCoC, as a firsts tep towards making them both easier to read, use and understand.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Just to clarify what I said yesterday about the routeing guide....

I can't access the routeing guide atm, but I think you have mis-read it. My understanding is that an 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid on any route permitted by the guide, but is not valid on OTHER routes for which a higher fare applies.

I have underlined the important bits....

How to determine Permitted routes

...

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose from any of the routes listed in the guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route. you may choose only those routes listed in the guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The routeing guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided that the same or a lower fare applies.

...

Ensuring the routeing points are appropriate

...

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "Any Permitted". An "Any Permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on routes not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

All of which means that the Preston-Carlisle 'rte Any Permitted' SOR (£33.40) is valid via Penrith despite a 'rte Penrith' SOR (£57) being available.

.... I will check to see if the examples used now are the original ones adapted to suit the new maps at some point tomorrow.

The examples are the same, but modified to use the new maps and routeing points.

 

[mallard]

This one we had somewhere recently:

Nottingham - Lichfield City, but only Off-Peak Return, and Anytime First Day Return.

The tickets on that route are "ANY PERMITTED" and "NOT BIRMINGHAM". Does that mean that if you buy the cheaper "ANY PERMITTED" SVR you have to go via Birmingham?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The 'rte Any Permitted' fare is valid on ANY route shown in the Routeing Guide as well as direct trains and the shortest route. They are also valid on any route that is not shown in the Routeing Guide where a cheaper route specific fare applies. However, they are NOT valid on routes not shown in the Routeing Guide where a higher route specific fare applies.

The 'rte Not Birmingham' fare is valid on any route shown in the routeing guide that avoids Birmingham. It would also be valid on the shortest route that avoids Birmingham and any direct trains that avoid Birmingham.

 

[tony_mac]

Just to recap, the routeing guide - in one place - directly contradicts that and says you can't use a lower-priced any permitted fare.

There is also at least one example where the booking engines won't allow a lower-priced any permitted fare on a permitted route. (Manchester - Reading via London).

While I think it is impossible to say, for certain, what the rule actually is, I think that both of these are mistakes; the examples are mostly nonsense anyway, and every other similar fare is priced 'route Banbury' rather than 'Any permitted'.

And anyway, I would say that the most favourable interpretation is allowed, persuant to the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations. But, in practice, that may not be so easy to get.

You probably won't be able to have a sensible discussion about the interpretation of the routeing guide, as obviously nobody senior in the railway industry has read it in any detail or it wouldn't be in the state it is in now.

 

[mumrar]

This doesn't strictly fit in with the theme for the OP, but I thought it would generate some discussion. I have reported this fare to XC as an employee many months ago, and still nothing has been done.

Audley End-Peterborough rte Not London
SOS - £15.50
CDR - £16.50
SVR - £18.30
SOR - £24.50
FSR - £44.80
7DS - £71.60
FOS - £130.00
7DF - £153.10
FOR - £259.50

So the FOR costs over £100 more than a 7-day first class season, and over 10x the cost of the SOR - Madness!