Flybmi - another one bites the dust.

[Howardh]

Appalling for those working for them, and passengers who may be stranded and those due to fly who have paid in full. That credit-card cashback comes in handy; however if someone had paid fully for their hotel and couldn't fly to it...??

Had a look at my travel insurance this morning and it wouldn't cover me for airline liquidation; so when it's renewal time I'm searching out (and probably paying more for) insurers that cover airline collapse and subsequent losses. If anyone knows such a provider I'd appreciate the information. I think Virgin Travel do this?

That being said, all hotel and travel purchases are on my card, however flights under £100 wouldn't be covered, and I'm not sure if the loss of the hotel cost would be covered by the card - anyone??

 

[GB]

Insurance may or may not cover depending on policy but you should also check to see if you are covered by ATOL protection.

 

[Howardh]

Insurance may or may not cover depending on policy but you should also check to see if you are covered by ATOL protection.

Separate flight bookings (ie not through an agency) wouldn't be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Separate flight bookings (ie not through an agency) wouldn't be.

Though note that if you book flight and accommodation through the airline that is.

 

[Howardh]

Though note that if you book flight and accommodation through the airline that is.

Eg Thomas Cook/TUI/jet2 Holidays - flight + hotel would be a package and ATOL (or similar) covered. That's as I understand!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eg Thomas Cook/TUI/jet2 Holidays - flight + hotel would be a package and ATOL (or similar) covered. That's as I understand!

Correct - and so is easyJet Holidays and the likes.

The key is that the flight and hotel accommodation (or I *think* flight and car hire) are booked together in a single transaction[1]. You can tell if it's a single transaction based on the number of debits on your bank account. That may sound patronising, but it's quite possible that you pressed "buy" once but actually got sold two separate things at once from two suppliers in the manner of buying multiple items in one basket on eBay.

[1] Separate deposit and instalments is also fine; it's just important that you're not charged separately for the flight and the accommodation as I recall at least one of the airlines did at one point.

 

[AM9]

More regrets from travellers selecting travel insurance based on price alone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

More regrets from travellers selecting travel insurance based on price alone?

Almost no travel insurance covers airline failure, as until the coming of the low-costs it wasn't really a thing - Governments would prop up their flag carrier as much as was needed.

Mind you, it's in a way surprising they didn't, as providing it would basically cost nowt - a bit like the third party liability clause on home contents insurance very often covers things totally unconnected with the home itself like if you damage a car while cycling, because there are almost no claims so it costs next to nothing (primarily because almost nobody knows such cover exists, so big is the furore about "uninsured cyclists"), so there's no point bothering to exclude it.

 

[najaB]

Almost no travel insurance covers airline failure, as until the coming of the low-costs it wasn't really a thing - Governments would prop up their flag carrier as much as was needed.

I wouldn't say "almost none", but it is less common than repatriation or delay cover.

 

[Groningen]

Some blaim it on Brexit. Is that really the correct reason?

 

[A Challenge]

What I think is silly was that they immediately stopped - not flying those people (who wanted to, of course if it was the out and they wouldn't be able to get home they might not want to), wjhen they had already gone through security and everything - didn't they know it was imminent?

 

[najaB]

What I think is silly was that they immediately stopped - not flying those people (who wanted to, of course if it was the out and they wouldn't be able to get home they might not want to), wjhen they had already gone through security and everything - didn't they know it was imminent?

Likely they were working on trying to get financing right up to when the plug got pulled. Once it became clear that they wouldn't get the money needed to keep flying then everything stops. Had they flown, they would be increasing their liability through landing fees, wages and fuel costs.

 

[najaB]

Some blaim it on Brexit. Is that really the correct reason?

Directly, no. But I know people who have delayed paying for this year's two weeks in Spain* because they don't know what's happening. It's not unreasonable to assume that weak bookings for the peak summer season would have dented investor confidence.

*Other countries are available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some blaim it on Brexit. Is that really the correct reason?

Brexit may well have tipped investors over the edge to withdraw, but small airlines are barely viable and so I'm surprised that one lasted so long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't say "almost none", but it is less common than repatriation or delay cover.

Fair point. Maybe legislation is needed to create a legal minimum to be allowed to call it travel or holiday insurance? I'm actually surprised the EU (yes, I know) hasn't already.

 

[najaB]

...small airlines are barely viable

Small airlines that think they're big. If you know your market and don't overextend you can stay in business for the long haul (no pun intended).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Small airlines that think they're big. If you know your market and don't overextend you can stay in business for the long haul (no pun intended).

True - and Loganair seems to have managed, to use one example. But a plane's full of EU compensation can cause serious damage if that's one of two you run that day. The BBC comedy "Cabin Pressure" does contain some semblance of truth.

FWIW, this is why I tend towards the view that flight compensation should be the same as Delay Repay, i.e. based on the fare paid and never exceeding it.

 

[Ken H]

Brexit may well have tipped investors over the edge to withdraw, but small airlines are barely viable and so I'm surprised that one lasted so long.

It has been said their load factors were low. Running half empty planes isnt a good business model.

 

[Howardh]

I wouldn't say "almost none", but it is less common than repatriation or delay cover.

Virgin, they do cover liquidation but the base price is over £50. Have to add up if it's worth it considering
(a) flights to the continent (at least) can be bought dirt-cheap so
(b) the insurers excess could be more than the cost of the flight and
(c) anything over £100 should be covered by your card.
The concern to me is what if you book an outbound then inbound flight with the same airline - if paid at the same time I assume the aggregate counts (ie above £100) even though they might both be separate payments?
Considering most of my flights are dirt-cheap booked in advance and hotels only paid on arrival (OK, with booking.com you may lose at least a night if you cancel within 24 hours of arrival - maybe the whole lot??) I'm really not sure which is better - to insure or risk the loss. Usually it's the cost of the hotel that's the biggie and if my airline went down I'd probably try to book an alternative even if it's late in the day and costs a lot more.
Anyhow - I will see what my current insurers say, especially if stranded could I get back on the insurance?

 

[Howardh]

True - and Loganair seems to have managed, to use one example. But a plane's full of EU compensation can cause serious damage if that's one of two you run that day. The BBC comedy "Cabin Pressure" does contain some semblance of truth.

FWIW, this is why I tend towards the view that flight compensation should be the same as Delay Repay, i.e. based on the fare paid and never exceeding it.

Loganair are *lucky* in that they serve regions which, by and large, have to rely on flights - eg the islands - ; and (I could be wrong) I think they are subsidised by the Scots government to a certain degree as a public service. Anyone know for sure??

 

[najaB]

True - and Loganair seems to have managed, to use one example. But a plane's full of EU compensation can cause serious damage if that's one of two you run that day.

I think that people are less likely to claim against a smaller airline.

I think they are subsidised by the Scots government to a certain degree as a public service.

They aren't subsidised directly, but each resident of the remote islands gets a number of cheap flights a year under the Air Discount Scheme.

 

[AM9]

Virgin, they do cover liquidation but the base price is over £50. Have to add up if it's worth it considering
(a) flights to the continent (at least) can be bought dirt-cheap so
(b) the insurers excess could be more than the cost of the flight and
(c) anything over £100 should be covered by your card.
The concern to me is what if you book an outbound then inbound flight with the same airline - if paid at the same time I assume the aggregate counts (ie above £100) even though they might both be separate payments?
Considering most of my flights are dirt-cheap booked in advance and hotels only paid on arrival (OK, with booking.com you may lose at least a night if you cancel within 24 hours of arrival - maybe the whole lot??) I'm really not sure which is better - to insure or risk the loss. Usually it's the cost of the hotel that's the biggie and if my airline went down I'd probably try to book an alternative even if it's late in the day and costs a lot more.
Anyhow - I will see what my current insurers say, especially if stranded could I get back on the insurance?

I have cover for 'End Supplier Failure' on my current travel insurance, last year's and the previous year's. This cover includes airlines, hotels, rail companies and ferries. It's a matter of how much premium you are prepared pay vs how much you are prepared to put a holiday at risk. Bear in mind that the cost of finding a flight to replace one booked on a failed airline at the last minute may be much more than you originally paid, - that's if you can get one at all. So it might be that the whole trip is lost including any accommodation.

 

[Ken H]

Loganair are *lucky* in that they serve regions which, by and large, have to rely on flights - eg the islands - ; and (I could be wrong) I think they are subsidised by the Scots government to a certain degree as a public service. Anyone know for sure??

Flybmi londonderry Stanstead route was subsidised.

 

[TheEdge]

I'll be honest, I though the last remains of BMI had died a few years ago. Just hope Flybe doesn't go the same way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be honest, I though the last remains of BMI had died a few years ago. Just hope Flybe doesn't go the same way.

Let's say I wouldn't book with them at the minute (and I'd hold back until the Virgin deal is completed and any route changes are announced - as I'm certain there will be plenty as they have to make it viable). Which of course does tend to turn it into a self fulfilling prophecy, but in the end I'm not a charity and I'm not going to spend money with a supplier I can't trust to be around for long enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have cover for 'End Supplier Failure' on my current travel insurance, last year's and the previous year's. This cover includes airlines, hotels, rail companies and ferries. It's a matter of how much premium you are prepared pay vs how much you are prepared to put a holiday at risk. Bear in mind that the cost of finding a flight to replace one booked on a failed airline at the last minute may be much more than you originally paid, - that's if you can get one at all. So it might be that the whole trip is lost including any accommodation.

Or you may find you can't find one at all (particularly at busy times of year), in which case it makes sense for the policy to cover the cost of everything you lost - which could be quite a lot if it was all non-refundable.

I certainly know someone who couldn't go on a Christmas markets trip in December due to a flight cancellation (there were no sensible alternatives on any airline - I had a good look for her!). No doubt their insurer paid out as it was a regular cancellation, but had it been a failure...

She ended up going to Birmingham. Commiserations. (To be fair the Brum Christmas Market is quite good, but I'm not sure I'd make a weekend of it)

 

[JamesT]

I have cover for 'End Supplier Failure' on my current travel insurance, last year's and the previous year's. This cover includes airlines, hotels, rail companies and ferries. It's a matter of how much premium you are prepared pay vs how much you are prepared to put a holiday at risk. Bear in mind that the cost of finding a flight to replace one booked on a failed airline at the last minute may be much more than you originally paid, - that's if you can get one at all. So it might be that the whole trip is lost including any accommodation.

My travel insurance through my current account also has End Supplier Failure covered. Though it does explicitly mention not being able to reach a pre-booked hotel after failure of the airline as something that would be excluded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My travel insurance through my current account also has End Supplier Failure covered. Though it does explicitly mention not being able to reach a pre-booked hotel after failure of the airline as something that would be excluded.

Which is really rather stupid as it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Definitely time for legislation to level the playing field.

 

[najaB]

Definitely time for legislation to level the playing field.

As long as insurers are clear on what they are and are not covering then there is no need for competition and innovation-stifling regulation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as insurers are clear on what they are and are not covering then there is no need for competition and innovation-stifling regulation.

I don't believe there is anyone who would not want their travel insurance to cover them if their airline went bust, so this is wilful obfuscation which to me means the insurers are not responsible enough to have that freedom and thus require regulation.

Can you imagine how poor third-party car insurance cover would be were its minimum cover not legally mandated?

Travel insurance should cover, as a legal matter, ANY reason out of your control for the booked trip being unable to take place. Yes, including force majeure, terrorism etc; a large insurance company is far better placed to take such a hit than an individual.