Flybmi - another one bites the dust.

[A Challenge]

...a large insurance company is far better placed to take such a hit than an individual.

They won't take the hit though - they'll pass it on (and some extra profit on top), so is it going to be better?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They won't take the hit though - they'll pass it on (and some extra profit on top), so is it going to be better?

Yes. Better to share it out among the insured. That's how compulsory car insurance works, and I would not[1] seek to abolish that any time soon.

[1] Would be happy to see it funded via taxation instead, though, meaning far more flexibility in the use of cars and thus reduced car ownership as any licenced person driving one would automatically have third party cover, so not owning one and borrowing your mate's or Mum's would be far easier to arrange.

 

[Howardh]

It would help if the government could reduce the tax on insurance. Without wishing to engage a Brexit argument here, there is the possibility that the loss of the EHIC could mean premiums going up as in you have no alternative BUT to have insurance so it's a captive market AND they will have to cover minor stuff (sprained ankles, cuts that need stitching etc) which the EHIC would cover easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would help if the government could reduce the tax on insurance. Without wishing to engage a Brexit argument here, there is the possibility that the loss of the EHIC could mean premiums going up as in you have no alternative BUT to have insurance so it's a captive market AND they will have to cover minor stuff (sprained ankles, cuts that need stitching etc) which the EHIC would cover easily.

IPT is only 12%. Could be worse, could be VAT at 20%!

Yes, I'd expect "Europe only" travel insurance will go away, to be replaced with the "rest of the world including USA/Canada" prices for all trips.

 

[najaB]

I don't believe there is anyone who would not want their travel insurance to cover them if their airline went bust, so this is wilful obfuscation which to me means the insurers are not responsible enough to have that freedom and thus require regulation.

If only want medical cover, why should I have to pay for airline failure cover?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only want medical cover, why should I have to pay for airline failure cover?

That policy would be called "health insurance for travellers", not "travel insurance". It's quite different from travel insurance - indeed in some countries travel insurance doesn't provide it at all because their state or private domestic health insurer typically does (e.g. in Germany).

If the policy covers a flight being cancelled in any form, it should not matter why it was cancelled. That is what I would seek to mandate. The only material fact is whether the passenger, having arrived at the airport on time with their documents in proper order, was able to fly at the specified time or not.

 

[najaB]

IPT is only 12%. Could be worse, could be VAT at 20%!

Yes, I'd expect "Europe only" travel insurance will go away, to be replaced with the "rest of the world including USA/Canada" prices for all trips.

Which is already a con given that the UK has reciprocal arrangements with several countries outside the EU.

 

[najaB]

If the policy covers a flight being cancelled in any form, it should not matter why it was cancelled. That is what I would seek to mandate. The only material fact is whether the passenger, having arrived at the airport on time with their documents in proper order, was able to fly at the specified time or not.

The principle remains - I object to legislation forcing me to pay extra insurance premiums to protect *me* against risks that I'm willing to accept.

This is completely different to having to pay for protection against risks *to others* which drives the minimum cover of third-party car insurance that you referred to.

 

[Ken H]

It would help if the government could reduce the tax on insurance. Without wishing to engage a Brexit argument here, there is the possibility that the loss of the EHIC could mean premiums going up as in you have no alternative BUT to have insurance so it's a captive market AND they will have to cover minor stuff (sprained ankles, cuts that need stitching etc) which the EHIC would cover easily.

Anybody who goes abroad, even in the EU, without decent insurance is an idiot. Much stuff is not covered by EHIC. the biggies are air ambulance home if you are not in a condition to take a normal flight, and repatriating a deceased body home. I had a family member die in Rome - no insurance. The cost of bringing the body home was massive. We did a funeral in Rome (getting an atheist funeral in Rome is almost impossible, but we did it) and even getting the ashes back to the UK cost an arm and a leg.
Then you have to translate the death cert for closing down stuff....

Even if you fall ill in the UK, and you are away from home. Imagine being hospitalised 4 hours drive from home. What does your family do? Stay in the area - but that can cost a lot. or go home and leave the ill person on their own. I dont think the NHS will arrange an ambulance from Truro to Carlisle!.

 

[Howardh]

Anybody who goes abroad, even in the EU, without decent insurance is an idiot. Much stuff is not covered by EHIC. the biggies are air ambulance home if you are not in a condition to take a normal flight, and repatriating a deceased body home. I had a family member die in Rome - no insurance. The cost of bringing the body home was massive. We did a funeral in Rome (getting an atheist funeral in Rome is almost impossible, but we did it) and even getting the ashes back to the UK cost an arm and a leg.
Then you have to translate the death cert for closing down stuff....

Even if you fall ill in the UK, and you are away from home. Imagine being hospitalised 4 hours drive from home. What does your family do? Stay in the area - but that can cost a lot. or go home and leave the ill person on their own. I dont think the NHS will arrange an ambulance from Truro to Carlisle!.

To counter that, your health insurance may be invalid if you have a fall after a couple of strong beers, or if you do crazy stunts on water bikes etc whereas the local A+E will glue you back together again under the EHIC. So it's swings and roundabouts, after Brexit don't get paralitic (a good thing IMO) and check thoroughly you are covered for climbing up things, swimming under things, jumping on things and getting hit by your own golf ball rebounding off your mate.

Your final point, I think if absolutely necessary an ambulance would take a patient from one end to the other and with a chaperone too, although an air ambulance might be more appropriate for 800 miles. If it isn't then it's a question of where do you draw the line, 10 miles, 30, 100??
If, for example, my old lady was taken ill in, say, Windermere, at some point after discharge she would have to get home to Bolton - and if a taxi/wheelchair car was out of the question then I assume they would provide an ambulance on discharge. She wa s moved 10 miles last year to home when car/taxi was inappropriate - so where's the line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anybody who goes abroad, even in the EU, without decent insurance is an idiot. Much stuff is not covered by EHIC. the biggies are air ambulance home if you are not in a condition to take a normal flight, and repatriating a deceased body home. I had a family member die in Rome - no insurance. The cost of bringing the body home was massive. We did a funeral in Rome (getting an atheist funeral in Rome is almost impossible, but we did it) and even getting the ashes back to the UK cost an arm and a leg.
Then you have to translate the death cert for closing down stuff....

Even if you fall ill in the UK, and you are away from home. Imagine being hospitalised 4 hours drive from home. What does your family do? Stay in the area - but that can cost a lot. or go home and leave the ill person on their own. I dont think the NHS will arrange an ambulance from Truro to Carlisle!.

One thing I find very surprising is that travel insurance for public transport travel domestically near enough doesn't exist.

 

[FQTV]

True - and Loganair seems to have managed, to use one example. But a plane's full of EU compensation can cause serious damage if that's one of two you run that day. The BBC comedy "Cabin Pressure" does contain some semblance of truth.

FWIW, this is why I tend towards the view that flight compensation should be the same as Delay Repay, i.e. based on the fare paid and never exceeding it.

Loganair are *lucky* in that they serve regions which, by and large, have to rely on flights - eg the islands - ; and (I could be wrong) I think they are subsidised by the Scots government to a certain degree as a public service. Anyone know for sure??

Loganair and flybmi are owned by the same company.

 

[najaB]

Loganair and flybmi are owned by the same company.

But, AFAIK, they are (were) functionally completely independent of each other.

 

[AM9]

One thing I find very surprising is that travel insurance for public transport travel domestically near enough doesn't exist.

Well every one that I've ever seen does. There are the usual stipulations that qualify trips away from home to booked accommodation such as minimum number of nights to be of a 'holiday' nature otherwise there would be a torrent of dubious if not fraudulent claims. If it was wanted, the most basic EU holiday would probably be the cheapest although there may be UK or even UK/Eire policies available. Of course, if we cease to be in the EU then all bets are off.

 

[FQTV]

But, AFAIK, they are (were) functionally completely independent of each other.

Not completely. flybmi operated services for Loganair, and the latter was due to receive two aircraft from the former to operate its summer schedule.

And, to analogise, British Airways, Iberia, Vueling, LEVEL and Aer Lingus are operated ‘separately,’ and on different Air Operator Certificates, but it would be brave to suggest that one of them ‘going bust’ would not prompt questions of their parent, IAG.

Likewise, SWISS, Brussels, Austrian and Eurowings. If one of them went pop, would no-one query the wider Lufthansa Group situation?

 

[AM9]

Which is already a con given that the UK has reciprocal arrangements with several countries outside the EU.

I don't know which countries you are referring to but those who can afford to visit the US and Canada can afford to take out the necessary insurance. If you can't, then go elsewhere.

 

[najaB]

If you can't, then go elsewhere.

That's the con - lots of people having to pay "rest of the world (inc. USA and Canada)" prices for countries where it's not necessary (since emergency care is available at low/no cost)., so that the insurance companies can recoup the cost of a single customer who gets into trouble in the States.

 

[AlterEgo]

Directly, no. But I know people who have delayed paying for this year's two weeks in Spain* because they don't know what's happening. It's not unreasonable to assume that weak bookings for the peak summer season would have dented investor confidence.

*Other countries are available.

flybmi cited Brexit uncertainty as a main reason for the failure.

Thy were primarily a business airline and relied on some private charter work in Europe to balance the books. Sadly they could apparently not compete in that charter market thanks to that uncertainty.

 

[richw]

Just hope Flybe doesn't go the same way.

Flybe directors pretty much said if shareholders reject the current takeover bid, the other option is liquidation

 

[chorleyjeff]

It has been said their load factors were low. Running half empty planes isnt a good business model.

18 passengers per flight I have heard. Recipe for failure I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loganair and flybmi are owned by the same company.

That I didn't know, and it's quite concerning given the effect on Scotland's rural areas if Loganair was to fail (though does explain why Loganair jumped in to take over a few routes!)

 

[TheEdge]

That I didn't know, and it's quite concerning given the effect on Scotland's rural areas if Loganair was to fail (though does explain why Loganair jumped in to take over a few routes!)

I suspect that Scottish government would either prop Loganiar up or bring those Island and Highland services in under Transport Scotland rather than let them just stop.

 

[Groningen]

This company can still fly within the borders of the UK.

 

[Ken H]

flybmi cited Brexit uncertainty as a main reason for the failure.

Thy were primarily a business airline and relied on some private charter work in Europe to balance the books. Sadly they could apparently not compete in that charter market thanks to that uncertainty.

No, it was one of several factors

Small airlines have been going pop within the EU27 too. Its a bad time for the small guys.

 

[najaB]

No, it was one of several factors

Small airlines have been going pop within the EU27 too. Its a bad time for the small guys.

Doesn't mean it wasn't the main factor for them though.

 

[baz962]

I don't know which countries you are referring to but those who can afford to visit the US and Canada can afford to take out the necessary insurance. If you can't, then go elsewhere.

Not true. My ex married an American and moved there with my son. I begged , borrowed and killed myself with ot in my previous job before joining the railway to see my son . I couldn't afford the insurance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not true. My ex married an American and moved there with my son. I begged , borrowed and killed myself with ot in my previous job before joining the railway to see my son . I couldn't afford the insurance.

I guess you have some kind of pre-existing condition? As travel insurance to the US is otherwise not at all expensive.

It's those people who would have been travelling on EHIC only who will now be stuck in the UK.

 

[baz962]

I guess you have some kind of pre-existing condition? As travel insurance to the US is otherwise not at all expensive.

It's those people who would have been travelling on EHIC only who will now be stuck in the UK.

I don't , I couldn't afford the trips , let alone the insurance. Still paying off the cards for the trips.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't , I couldn't afford the trips , let alone the insurance. Still paying off the cards for the trips.

I just did a quote for a week's cover on Insureandgo to the US. £35. This pales into insignificance compared to the cost of the flights which will be over 10 times as much.

I'm sure it could be got cheaper with some work.

 

[najaB]

I guess you have some kind of pre-existing condition? As travel insurance to the US is otherwise not at all expensive.

It's significantly more expensive than to Europe though - usually at least twice as much.