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Flying Scotsman and her multiple disguises...

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markindurham

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I know that the A3's ended up having these deflectors fitted in BR days but in reality how big a problem was drifting smoke? The A1's and the A3 rebuilds managed to last their entire LNER career without them.

The other thing that I don't quite understand is what is so different about the aerodynamics of an A3 from say a V2 - which didn't get deflectors as far as I'm aware at any point - or just about every other UK express steam engine? Why did GWR Castles and Kings not end up looking like a Teutonic kettle too? :?:

As far as most of the locomotives under discussion are concerned, it's all to do with having Kylchap blastpipes & double chimneys fitted. They have a 'softer' exhaust, so there isn't the same force to blow steam/smoke clear of the locomotive, hence the need to have the deflectors fitted. AFAIK the GW classes didn't have Kylchaps, hence no need for deflectors.
 
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4-COR 3142

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As far as most of the locomotives under discussion are concerned, it's all to do with having Kylchap blastpipes & double chimneys fitted. They have a 'softer' exhaust, so there isn't the same force to blow steam/smoke clear of the locomotive, hence the need to have the deflectors fitted. AFAIK the GW classes didn't have Kylchaps, hence no need for deflectors.

So for the benefit of a steam numpty like myself, could Scotsman be converted to single Chimney? and would it help?
 

Peter Mugridge

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If I remember right, Scotsman was originally built as a single chimney so in theory yes she could be converted back but it's not quite as simple as changing the chimney unfortunately - there's an awful lot of work involved and her performance would probably suffer. If the double chimneys were not making a positive difference then they wouldn't have done a wholesale fleet conversion would they?
 

4-COR 3142

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If I remember right, Scotsman was originally built as a single chimney so in theory yes she could be converted back but it's not quite as simple as changing the chimney unfortunately - there's an awful lot of work involved and her performance would probably suffer. If the double chimneys were not making a positive difference then they wouldn't have done a wholesale fleet conversion would they?

Right so the blast pipes would need to be changed as well as the chimney? I'm sure the double chimneys did make a positive affect on the loco's performance but what I was actually trying to understand is could Scotsman be converted back to single chimney - LNER form- and asking if in so doing (with any blast pipe work etc. required) would it ease the smoke problems? and allow it to run again without those hideous smoke deflectors.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I received a mail shot from Steam Dreams yesterday. They are doing a number of steam train trips next year with haulage by Flying Scotsman, not only along the LNER, but also some tours from London around the south east & some other local trips too.

(They are also doing some with LMS Princess Elizabeth in the spring too, in connection with HM The Queen's 90th Birthday.)

I presume The Scotsman, in it's latest guise, will have it's tender marked as LNER rather than British Railways?
 

alexl92

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I received a mail shot from Steam Dreams yesterday. They are doing a number of steam train trips next year with haulage by Flying Scotsman, not only along the LNER, but also some tours from London around the south east & some other local trips too.

(They are also doing some with LMS Princess Elizabeth in the spring too, in connection with HM The Queen's 90th Birthday.)

Princess Elizabeth? She's not operational is she? Or is she...?!

I presume The Scotsman, in it's latest guise, will have it's tender marked as LNER rather than British Railways?

No, carrying number 60103 means it'll be in BR Livery.

1472, 4472, 503 and 103 were her LNER numbers. When BR was formed, 60000 was added to the numbers of all LNER stock so 103 (FS's last LNER number) became 60103.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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Princess Elizabeth? She's not operational is she? Or is she...?!



No, carrying number 60103 means it'll be in BR Livery.

1472, 4472, 503 and 103 were her LNER numbers. When BR was formed, 60000 was added to the numbers of all LNER stock so 103 (FS's last LNER number) became 60103.


Thank you for these explanations. According to the Steam Dreams Brochure, Princess Elizabeth is scheduled for some of their trips in November and then again in Spring next year.

Interesting info too about Flying Scotsman, I would have preferred it to be LNER, but I am just pleased that it is hopefully coming back soon.
 

MarkyT

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The double Kylchaps were fitted to the entire Gresley pacific fleet in the late 1950s (those that didn't have them already). That was towards the end of steam on the East Coast, and was carried out explicitly to improve performance and save coal for which a sound business case was made at the time with strong support from senior management including Gerry Fiennes (of "I Tried To Run A Railway" fame). The measure was very successful with A3s and the thereotically more powerful A4 being able to be used interchangeably on 90MPH express diagrams day in day out, even successfully substituting on many failed diesel diagrams during the changeover period.

Whilst the A4 streamlined casing had always been known to be a great smoke lifting device, the soft Kylchap exhaust on the A3s proved much more prone to drifting at speed and that was considered a safety problem, particularly for sighting signals. My father, Peter Townend, who was shedmaster at Top Shed at the time, made the suggestion of the German style deflectors as he had observed the type always performing well during his travels in that country. A further advantage was the design didn't extend down to footplate level so they were no obstacle to crew and depot staff safely walking around the front of the locomotives. He sent some photos of the German designs to Doncaster's drawing office who quickly produced a design that was applied to all subsequent A3s visiting the works for overhaul. Many locos received their deflectors at the same time as their Kylchaps.

Love or loath their appearance, the double Kylchap and deflector arrangement was an undoubted success from a performance, economy and safety perspective. The performance and safety considerations in particular are still important for heritage main line operations on today's busy high-speed railway and whilst retaining these features for good operational reasons at least Flying Scotsman is now due to appear in a historically accurate late BR livery.
 
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sprinterguy

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Princess Elizabeth? She's not operational is she? Or is she...?!
The loco has been back in steam at Tyseley over the summer, and more recently has been visible at Tyseley depot looking spotless with the boiler cladding re-applied. As STEVIEBOY1 says, "Princess Elizabeth" is due to return to the mainline towards the end of the year, and it is currently having TPWS and OTMR refitted:
http://www.6201.co.uk/news.htm
 
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fv43576

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Would it be wise if I booking now, or I should wait till near next year for the Flying Scotsman by Steam Dream, Because it is possible things go wrong before it gets ready for first charter
 

STEVIEBOY1

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Would it be wise if I booking now, or I should wait till near next year for the Flying Scotsman by Steam Dream, Because it is possible things go wrong before it gets ready for first charter

It may be better to book sooner rather than later, both locos are popular, especially I should imagine, the Flying Scotsman as that has not been on the main line for a long time. I know steam charters can be altered or cancelled at any time, but in these cases once you have booked at least you know you have a reservation. If you leave it until close to the date of travel, it may be booked up by that time and you could be disappointed. I have booked 2 trips for Princess Elizabeth and one for the Flying Scotsman.
 

sprinterguy

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If I remember right, Scotsman was originally built as a single chimney so in theory yes she could be converted back but it's not quite as simple as changing the chimney unfortunately - there's an awful lot of work involved and her performance would probably suffer. If the double chimneys were not making a positive difference then they wouldn't have done a wholesale fleet conversion would they?
Interestingly, Flying Scotsman ran for thirty years in preservation with a single chimney and sans smoke deflectors, from 1963 to 1993, after Alan Pegler restored it from BR condition.
 

fv43576

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When I went look on Steam Dream, I was disappointment that Flying Scotsman will not run both direction Kings X to York seem to me a pointless nothing like real one do in long time ago, Tornado did both way so why can't Scotsman do same?
 

chris89

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More to be about Scotsman then her multiple disguises (in which i love the BR Green, Smoke Deflectors etc :P )

The SVR have announced it is to take part of our Autumn Steam Gala next year. Of course pending no issues with the locomotive.

Chris
 

STEVIEBOY1

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When I went look on Steam Dream, I was disappointment that Flying Scotsman will not run both direction Kings X to York seem to me a pointless nothing like real one do in long time ago, Tornado did both way so why can't Scotsman do same?

I think they may be doing it like that as a way to get the loco from York to London so it can then do some tours around the south east. Perhaps it will be able to do some Lon/York/Lon trips later. They may wish to see how she performs on the main line first before going on such a busy route.
 

Monty

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You will probably find that once she does return to steam she will not be as intensively worked as she once was. Many due to her age and the amount of money spent on her.
 
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