Flying Scotsman @ KGX?

[tellytype]

Thank you and welcome to the forum. Strangely enough the growth in popularity of drones in recent times was in my mind when I watched the video. I'm not into aviation particularly, and had to Google NOTAM to find out what it was. I'd have thought an event like this would be of interest to drone operators. Are NOTAMs routinely issued in all instances of low flying permissions being granted, because if not, today's train in addition to raising rail safety concerns should also be raising aviation safety concerns.

Thanks for the welcome - long time lurker here background, Broadcast Engineer, PPL pilot pleasure flying & licensed commercial drone operator.

At the risk of thread drift, NOTAMS are an interesting beast - it isn't compulsory to file them, but it's considered good airmanship to do so if you're doing anything odd - they take time to be communicated. The overriding principal of flying for light aircraft, drones & helis is VFR - the Mk1 eyeball, the pilot is responsible for lookout. Despite this I would certainly have at least expected a NOTAM to be in for Arenas antics today & had I been operating in the area with a UAV I would've had a 'brown trouser' moment had nothing been NOTAM'd & had to get the UAV out of the way pretty damn quick. There is a concept of equivalence in aviation - manned & unmanned aviation work to the same rules (give or take a few bits)

For comparison - similar permissions are issued for air shows & those are NOTAM'd, but they are likely planned months in advance, most broadcast planners don't look beyond their horn rimmed glasses, I know that one from bitter experience.

Personal opinion - G-TAKE didn't NEED to be where she was. The lens on the camera on that aircraft is sufficient for close fine detail at a greater distance. The risks were not commensurate with the likely reward. Was it safe? In the event yes, was it wise? Probably not, but that's a subjective point.

 

[Tracked]

Apologies if already shared here:

https://twitter.com/jsimoncar/status/702782227722141696

Phil

What an idiot, he's even put Site instead of Sight

 

[colchesterken]

I Love steam engines ! however we have loads in preservation, working and non working

There is only one 25kv EMU in preservation at EARM good old 306 017 who escaped scrapping by the good will of the Ilford depot manager, Who hid it for "training projects"
It ran specials as the "Pride of the line" under first group then was left to rot
It was passed to NRM and is now rotting at EARM all for the sale of a coat of protective undercoat. Quick rub down and a splash of paint to keep is safe till it can be restored Look at how close we came to losing the 503 unit. Lets start a campaign to protect it in someway!!

 

[D1009]

That should renamed Exhibit One...

Good to read the comments on it, though, even puts us to shame!

 

[SPADTrap]

Virgin handing out free holidays to those who were bowled. Get in line people!

 

[sprinterguy]

How many paying pax were delayed due to this illegal action? It's bad enough when the 'kettles' cause line-side fires! It's time they were in the museum not on the ECML

I don't think that steam locomotives should be restricted to trundling along at a maximum of 25mph or less on preserved lines, but I do think that BR of the 1970s and 80s had the right approach in restricting steam tours to certain popular lines, where regular traffic will be less affected by any disruption: The S&C, Cambrian, West Highland, York - Scarborough or Birmingham - Stratford.

I think that it's fantastic to see main line steam locomotives putting in sterling performances on their old stomping grounds, and I don't think that the actions of a comparatively small number of eejits requires a knee-jerk reaction from Network Rail to the running of steam over their metals, but restricting steam to a limited number of accepted routes would make such incidents easier to police and restrict the impact of such incidents to a smaller subset of the travelling public, while still keeping steam on the main line. Steam tours don't generally, the recent superlative 90mph run with "Bittern" excepted, exceed 75mph, so restricting them to primarily secondary routes shouldn't affect to any great extent the experience for those travelling or watching from the lineside.
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However the majority, at least from my experience at York today were excellent - very courteous, obeying staff orders and it was a pleasant, magical moment at York to see the Scotsman come in.

I want to thank the staff at York today and for all involved in getting this set up. Certainly a lot of enthusiasm, with the PA announcer getting into it with mexican waves and providing frequent updates.

I'm glad to hear that such a mature and considerate attitude was displayed by those present at York. If anywhere, it was there that I expected scenes of confrontation or over-excitement to ensue.
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Good to read the comments on it, though, even puts us to shame!

Aye, it's reassuring to see the progenitor being wholeheartedly lampooned for his actions on the public forum of Twitter.
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https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/702769399522963457

That's clearly a 91, isn't it?

Indeed, but this new-fangled technology of electrickery is probably beyond the perceptive powers of Sky News to comprehend with regard to railways: They're only interested if it's steam powered.

 

[the-gog]

That should renamed Exhibit One...

A couple of screenshots from it. Note the little kid on the RHS.

 

[sprinterguy]

Mind you, the day wasn't entirely wasted...

Ah, a classic shot of a Pacer, a photo to be cherished for years to come! Not least because the Pacers have a far shorter life expectancy than the "Flying Scotsman" undoubtedly does. Definitely one to show to the grandkids, years down the line: "Lad, now I know that you've seen that "Flying Scotsman" thingummy that got sold off to the Intercontinental Raildrome in Beijing years ago, but once upon a time we had these four-wheeled buses on rails that ferried passengers in and out of the major northern cities..."

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

A couple of screenshots from it. Note the little kid on the RHS.

And, as I have said before, who would have been blamed if trains had hit the trespassers?

Oh yeah, the TOCs

Ah, a classic shot of a Pacer, a photo to be cherished for years to come! Not least because the Pacers have a far shorter life expectancy than the "Flying Scotsman" undoubtedly does. Definitely one to show to the grandkids, years down the line: "Lad, now I know that you've seen that "Flying Scotsman" thingummy that got sold off to the Intercontinental Raildrome in Beijing years ago, but once upon a time we had these four-wheeled buses on rails that ferried passengers in and out of the major northern cities..."

You are lucky I am in a reasonably good mood - otherwise I'd report that for being Pacerist

 

[sprinterguy]

You are lucky I am in a reasonably good mood - otherwise I'd report that for being Pacerist

Guilty as charged.

I actually do think that more than a couple of 142s will enter preservation. There's 100% representation from class 140 already, a few class 141s preserved from a class of no more than twenty, and the type do have their own preservation society already.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Guilty as charged.

I actually do think that more than a couple of 142s will enter preservation. There's 100% representation from class 140 already, a few class 141s preserved from a class of no more than twenty, and the type do have their own preservation society already.

I fear we may be going off topic here, but is Class 140 the only time that an entire class has been preserved?

 

[sprinterguy]

I fear we may be going off topic here, but is Class 140 the only time that an entire class has been preserved?

The APT-E is also preserved as the only example of its type (and is owned by the NRM, so we're moving back towards a tenuous link with the 'Scotsman).

I also considered the shunter D0226 at the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, but apparently there was another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_D0226

It's just a shame that the preservation movement missed out on the likes of GT3, "Kestrel", "Lion" and DP2 (although the latter was thoroughly wrecked), and for that matter, to bring the topic further in line, that Edward Thompson saw fit to make such a mess of the doyen Gresley A1 "Great Northern"!

 

[Matt Taylor]

What about 89001?

 

[45517]

I fear we may be going off topic here, but is Class 140 the only time that an entire class has been preserved?

What about 71000 ?

 

[Minilad]

What about 89001?

Where is "The Badger" these days?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Mmm... Fair point to all above

What is the likelihood of BTP doing some prosecutions for the trespass?

 

[sprinterguy]

Where is "The Badger" these days?

Barrow Hill, owned as it is by the AC Locomotive Group.

 

[Minilad]

Barrow Hill, owned as it is by the AC Locomotive Group.

I knew it was owned by the ACLG but had it in my head it was still at Bounds Green for some reason.
Loved runs behind it back in the day

 

[theageofthetra]

Alfred & Judy the Port of Par twins are an entire class which survived into preservation.

 

[D1009]

Thanks for the welcome - long time lurker here background, Broadcast Engineer, PPL pilot pleasure flying & licensed commercial drone operator.

At the risk of thread drift, NOTAMS are an interesting beast - it isn't compulsory to file them, but it's considered good airmanship to do so if you're doing anything odd - they take time to be communicated. The overriding principal of flying for light aircraft, drones & helis is VFR - the Mk1 eyeball, the pilot is responsible for lookout. Despite this I would certainly have at least expected a NOTAM to be in for Arenas antics today & had I been operating in the area with a UAV I would've had a 'brown trouser' moment had nothing been NOTAM'd & had to get the UAV out of the way pretty damn quick. There is a concept of equivalence in aviation - manned & unmanned aviation work to the same rules (give or take a few bits)

For comparison - similar permissions are issued for air shows & those are NOTAM'd, but they are likely planned months in advance, most broadcast planners don't look beyond their horn rimmed glasses, I know that one from bitter experience.

Personal opinion - G-TAKE didn't NEED to be where she was. The lens on the camera on that aircraft is sufficient for close fine detail at a greater distance. The risks were not commensurate with the likely reward. Was it safe? In the event yes, was it wise? Probably not, but that's a subjective point.

Thanks for that insight. My concern is that helicopters can spoil normal people's enjoyment of an event like this, and thinking about it, so can drones if operated with a disregard of other people's fear of them, as no-one can be sure that the person operating them is licensed and competent. If there's a safety issue as well caused by lack of knowledge of low flying helicopters, that should be made known to the appropriate authorities, and I hope that can be raised in drone forums, if such exist.

 

[TBirdFrank]

OK - followed this from Huntingdon all the way to York today.

The NRM, Network Rail and the BTP have all been aware of what happens when this particular loco goes on tour. It becomes a public event and I would not be surprised if over a million people came out today to see 60103 pass by.

It doesn't take much forethought in today's world of "me, me, me" to anticipate that those who don't give a hoot for rules or discipline because they know a prosecution is about as likely as snow in June are more than likely to be climbing over fences.

Accordingly it would not have taken much initiative to send out a few NR pickups with the orange squad or BTP police to known hot spots to keep the initiative.

The railway is owned and operated by NR and its security is their responsibility, not the public's so when they are part of the conduct of an event like this folding arms and tutting is not a tenable answer.

Anyone writing a risk assessment for today would have had trespass at the top of their concerns and that demands a pre-planned response.

As for the comment from the company in Wakefield - they just don't know when to keep quiet do they??

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Good to read the comments on it, though, even puts us to shame!

I've just gone through the comments and "liked" a large number of the ones having a go at the moron in question. I urge everyone else on here to do the same.

 

[DaleCooper]

The railway is owned and operated by NR and its security is their responsibility, not the public's so when they are part of the conduct of an event like this folding arms and tutting is not a tenable answer.

I agree up to a point but the costs of additional security should be borne by the train operator through increased access charges.

 

[the sniper]

The railway is owned and operated by NR and its security is their responsibility, not the public's so when they are part of the conduct of an event like this folding arms and tutting is not a tenable answer.

If that's what you believe than mainline steam should be banned. Problem solved.

Why should NR go massively out of it's way to accommodate hundreds of law breaking morons, watching something for free that is nothing but an unnecessary operational inconvenience?

 

[MadCommuter]

There's trespassing on embankments, but going on to a live line is sheer lunacy. Yesterday could easily have ended in fatalities and only luck prevented that happening. I suspect the authorities will be closely looking at what happened and I hope action is taken against offenders.

From photos I've seen, it does look like average public, mostly, at fault, but any sane person knows you don't walk on a railway line.

I'm very disappointed.

 

[sprinterguy]

Accordingly it would not have taken much initiative to send out a few NR pickups with the orange squad or BTP police to known hot spots to keep the initiative.

Looking at photos and videos there appears to have been an appropriate police or staff presence at both Kings Cross and York yesterday, which I would have considered to be the two most likely locations where an incident might occur. I'm not sure where Network Rail or the BTP would find sufficient resource to police every minor commuter station or level crossing en route, which is where the majority of trespass incidents seem to have actually occurred.

 

[furnessvale]

Thanks for that insight. My concern is that helicopters can spoil normal people's enjoyment of an event like this, and thinking about it, so can drones if operated with a disregard of other people's fear of them, as no-one can be sure that the person operating them is licensed and competent. If there's a safety issue as well caused by lack of knowledge of low flying helicopters, that should be made known to the appropriate authorities, and I hope that can be raised in drone forums, if such exist.

Try looking at a video of steam in the USA.

There is one of the Southern Pacific 4-8-4 over Tehachapi. A couple of minutes before the train arrives at the loop, a whole squadron of helicopters turns up totally drowning out the loco.

Not that the loco was doing much. The fleet of big diesels behind it were doing all the work.

 

[BRblue]

Looking at photos and videos there appears to have been an appropriate police or staff presence at both Kings Cross and York yesterday, which I would have considered to be the two most likely locations where an incident might occur. I'm not sure where Network Rail or the BTP would find sufficient resource to police every minor commuter station or level crossing en route, which is where the majority of trespass incidents seem to have actually occurred.

Yes and this seems to have been missed...
Yesterday was a normal operational day on the East Coast main line... you cannot just divert all your resources to baby sit one loco on one journey.

 

[Spamcan81]

There's trespassing on embankments, but going on to a live line is sheer lunacy. Yesterday could easily have ended in fatalities and only luck prevented that happening. I suspect the authorities will be closely looking at what happened and I hope action is taken against offenders.

From photos I've seen, it does look like average public, mostly, at fault, but any sane person knows you don't walk on a railway line.

I'm very disappointed.

A foot crossing at Offord.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153271058285880&set=pcb.10153271063200880&type=3&theater
None of these are in a position of danger but they are of course trespassing. Looks like a group of ordinary folk out to see a loco that they've read about in the massive media hype surrounding the run. There was a time when trespass such as this would have been ignored but things are different these days and their action cannot be condoned. I suspect that a time goes on the media circus surrounding FS will diminish and far fewer people will go out to see her and hopefully trespass will greatly reduce as a result.

 

[Dave1987]

A foot crossing at Offord.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153271058285880&set=pcb.10153271063200880&type=3&theater
None of these are in a position of danger but they are of course trespassing. Looks like a group of ordinary folk out to see a loco that they've read about in the massive media hype surrounding the run. There was a time when trespass such as this would have been ignored but things are different these days and their action cannot be condoned. I suspect that a time goes on the media circus surrounding FS will diminish and far fewer people will go out to see her and hopefully trespass will greatly reduce as a result.

Looks like some good clear images to get ID's to send some nice warning letters to them in the post. This should not be viewed as just a few ordinary people trying to see a steam train. They are trespassing pure and simple! Image if I scaled the walls of old Will and Kate's house to take a few snaps, do you think the police would give me a slap on the wrist? No they would charge me with trespass and/or probably shoot me! How is this any difference to trespassing on the mainline?