Food for thought for those applying - Risk of over preparing for the driver tests

[Horizon22]

Granted but CRM would usually advocate at least a certain amount of pleasantries in a social setting too. In uniform at least.

True, can't force people to like each other though! I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek here - of course a certain level of professionalism must be expected and being made to feel like an "other" can weigh on your mind after you've left the mess room and into the cab.

 

[Mattydo]

True, can't force people to like each other though! I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek here - of course a certain level of professionalism must be expected and being made to feel like an "other" can weigh on your mind after you've left the mess room and into the cab.

Ha don’t get me wrong almost everyone groans when the CRM recency training comes up (I have an abnormal interest in Human Factors) and I’m sure it’s being over stated, but I would I rather hope it isn’t an openly hostile work environment. Thus far my experience of the railway has been of a quite friendly and supportive environment. All grades seem to show a fair amount of jealousy towards drivers (behind their backs), and there is a perhaps seemingly unnecessary hostility towards some managers, but I’m pretty new to the industry so there might be historical reason at my depot. Anyway I’ll find out for myself soon enough what the journey to footplate is like.

 

[Rockhopper]

This talk of ignoring new trainees and indeed to an extent newly qualified drivers does surprise me. In the industry I’m coming from it is a human factors issue that the industry has spent a considerable amount of time, effort and money to overcome.

Crew Resource Management (CRM) training as it’s called initially focussed on flight deck power gradients. There were several incidents (The BMI Kegworth crash on the M1 in 1989 being a major one), where junior crew (pilots and cabin) were too scared to speak up when a captain made a mistake for fear of retribution or, assuming they “knew what they were doing”.

It was found that this mentality started in the pilot’s lounge where seniority played a huge part in a social pecking order.

The Captains, predominantly ex military, were also not used to having decisions challenged.

What followed those findings was a huge purge on ex military recruitment and a bigger focus on what my seniors may refer to as the fluffy aspects of the job but human factors trainers would refer to as; creating a safe environment for open communication.

In recent years it was found to be even more important in a training situation where an absolutist approach to training resulted in poorer uptake of information and a reluctance to ask questions for fear of being reprimanded for not having already acquired the information.

Now don’t get me wrong, experience is highly valuable, but with it can come complacency and an attitude of expectation that is not conducive to learning.

I would expect as Non-Techs become more important in the railway industry these discussions and concepts will also become more common.

You are thinking of the Staines crash back in 1972. Captain Stanley Keys was ex military. He retracted the droops too early and no one else on the flight deck dared to question him as he was one of the most senior Captains in BEA.
The BMI accident was complex but mostly caused by the crews unfamiliarity with the version of the 737 they were flying.

 

[Mattydo]

You are thinking of the Staines crash back in 1972. Captain Stanley Keys was ex military. He retracted the droops too early and no one else on the flight deck dared to question him as he was one of the most senior Captains in BEA.
The BMI accident was complex but mostly caused by the crews unfamiliarity with the version of the 737 they were flying.

Actually they are both pretty good, but far from the only examples, of a breakdown in CRM. In several communications between the flight deck and cabin crew the damaged engine was discussed and wrongly identified by the Captain but with no attempt to reach a clear understanding by the cabin crew. Not their fault but because they were not taught to question and confirm in the way crew are now.

In interviews after the FO also admitted to being unsure of, and not vocalising that confusion about, the identification of the failed engine. It transpired he was actually more experienced on that variant than the skipper.

The Captain’s confusion did indeed arise from the EICAS layout as opposed to the old “steam gauges” he was used to. As well as a change in the 300/400 bleed system that meant air supply for the cockpit was primarily from the right not left engine as in previous variants.

It is also important to say that the Captain himself was not known to be unapproachable, however the industry culture at the time still didn’t emphasise the importance of vocalising concerns and utilising all crew aboard and on the ground. Too much that could have been said was not.

 

[Gloster]

You are thinking of the Staines crash back in 1972. Captain Stanley Keys was ex military. He retracted the droops too early and no one else on the flight deck dared to question him as he was one of the most senior Captains in BEA.
The BMI accident was complex but mostly caused by the crews unfamiliarity with the version of the 737 they were flying.

Staines has been quoted as one of the extreme examples of what was known as the ‘Captain is God’ syndrome. Captain Keys was thought to have made the mistake due to having some form of heart attack, probably caused by a heated argument related to industrial action before take-off, and as he seems to have been regarded as a bit of a martinet, nobody spoke up. Incidentally, it has been said that Qantas’ good safety record was due to the Australian willingness to speak up and not be cowed by seniority, God or not. (That, and, the fact that the most dangerous parts of the flight are take-off and landing, but with so many long-haul flights, these two operations make a welcome change and the pilots are more likely to treat each one individually. Duties that involve frequent take-offs and landings are likely to result in a slight casualness, however conscientious the pilots are.)

At Kegworth, I think that the engine from which the cabin air supply was drawn had been changed from one side to the other on the new mark of the aircraft that was involved. However, nobody had properly briefed the pilots about this, if at all. When burning was smelt, they assumed that it was coming from the engine which had always previously supplied the air and shut it down, even though it was the sound engine. This left them with one engine that was on the point of failing, which it did. Lesson: brief staff fully about all changes and their results.

 

[Mattydo]

Staines has been quoted as one of the extreme examples of what was known as the ‘Captain is God’ syndrome. Captain Keys was thought to have made the mistake due to having some form of heart attack, probably caused by a heated argument related to industrial action before take-off, and as he seems to have been regarded as a bit of a martinet, nobody spoke up. Incidentally, it has been said that Qantas’ good safety record was due to the Australian willingness to speak up and not be cowed by seniority, God or not. (That, and, the fact that the most dangerous parts of the flight are take-off and landing, but with so many long-haul flights, these two operations make a welcome change and the pilots are more likely to treat each one individually. Duties that involve frequent take-offs and landings are likely to result in a slight casualness, however conscientious the pilots are.)

At Kegworth, I think that the engine from which the cabin air supply was drawn had been changed from one side to the other on the new mark of the aircraft that was involved. However, nobody had properly briefed the pilots about this, if at all. When burning was smelt, they assumed that it was coming from the engine which had always previously supplied the air and shut it down, even though it was the sound engine. This left them with one engine that was on the point of failing, which it did. Lesson: brief staff fully about all changes and their results.

Perhaps showing how CRM extends beyond the flight deck or fuselage really.

It is ultimately a contributing factor in many incidents although not always the primary one.

anyway we are getting dangerously into the realms of a pprune discussion rather than a railway one. Interesting as it may be to employees in both industries.

 

[ainsworth74]

Quite so! A fascinating topic but unless we can bring it to a slightly more railway focused angle time to leave it there or take it to a new thread in Other Transport (which would be more than welcome!)

 

[notadriver]

We have to also remember these roles are incredibly competitive - we're talking rations of 1000+:1 for each vacancy when these come up - and therefore even getting part-way through a phase probably means you are better than 80-90% of people and should take some heart in that. A select few will "have it" and that's what the MMI and DMI will look out for - you may not know it until it happens.

It’s incredibly hard to get a job as a trainee bus driver too. I had multiple attempts.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have to say that I think that the assessment of the situation is perhaps a little stark and I’m not sure that I entirely agree with much of it.

I am still to be convinced that the information and advice given on sites like this makes a lot of difference to the outcome of driver assessments. As has already been mentioned, the TOCs themselves send out practice material for candidates to try with and the type of questions you might be asked by a manager could reasonably be guessed at after a fairly short period of reflection. In addition, no matter how much information and advice is offered a candidate still has to sit the assessment for real and is in no way guaranteed to pass. But even if they do, this really is only the first of very many hurdles that they will have to clear before they qualify, and not all trainees will manage that.

As for ignoring new drivers, I think that’s just nonsense. Nobody sets out to deliberately ignore new colleagues, and anybody who does is an a***. Certainly the established drivers will all know each other and have shared histories often spanning decades so it can be hard for someone new to break into that, but that’s a different thing to a deliberate policy of ignoring a person. But then that’s the same when you’re new in many settings, whether that be a workplace, sports club or social setting and not specific to the railway.

I’ve certainly never experienced being deliberately ignored due to being new, either as a brand new driver or when transferring to a different company. And I do make a point of talking to both instructors and trainees when relieving/being relieved because I want to talk to whoever has just got out of/is about to get into the chair, because they are the ones who know/need to know about the train.

All that said, I do think that sometimes the new chaps occasionally need to put themselves forward a bit too. Hiding in corners or avoiding the messroom won’t help to break down barriers and integrate them into the wider depot community. It’s something I do when visiting other TOC’s messrooms, and it’s helped me to debunk a lot of the myths about certain locations which perpetuate around my home depot.

 

[Carli]

This has been a very interesting read. I'm currently in a talent pool for a Trainee Train Driver, awaiting a medical and start date. Doubts have crossed my mind about whether I'm good enough to be a Train Driver but I'm determined to succeed. Thank you all for the information

 

[387star]

Ha don’t get me wrong almost everyone groans when the CRM recency training comes up (I have an abnormal interest in Human Factors) and I’m sure it’s being over stated, but I would I rather hope it isn’t an openly hostile work environment. Thus far my experience of the railway has been of a quite friendly and supportive environment. All grades seem to show a fair amount of jealousy towards drivers (behind their backs), and there is a perhaps seemingly unnecessary hostility towards some managers, but I’m pretty new to the industry so there might be historical reason at my depot. Anyway I’ll find out for myself soon enough what the journey to footplate is like.

Yes I overheard some On Board Sometimes saying they thought new trainees acted like they own the place and look down on them. Sad they think that

 

[Mattydo]

I have to say that I think that the assessment of the situation is perhaps a little stark and I’m not sure that I entirely agree with much of it.

I am still to be convinced that the information and advice given on sites like this makes a lot of difference to the outcome of driver assessments. As has already been mentioned, the TOCs themselves send out practice material for candidates to try with and the type of questions you might be asked by a manager could reasonably be guessed at after a fairly short period of reflection. In addition, no matter how much information and advice is offered a candidate still has to sit the assessment for real and is in no way guaranteed to pass. But even if they do, this really is only the first of very many hurdles that they will have to clear before they qualify, and not all trainees will manage that.

As for ignoring new drivers, I think that’s just nonsense. Nobody sets out to deliberately ignore new colleagues, and anybody who does is an a***. Certainly the established drivers will all know each other and have shared histories often spanning decades so it can be hard for someone new to break into that, but that’s a different thing to a deliberate policy of ignoring a person. But then that’s the same when you’re new in many settings, whether that be a workplace, sports club or social setting and not specific to the railway.

I’ve certainly never experienced being deliberately ignored due to being new, either as a brand new driver or when transferring to a different company. And I do make a point of talking to both instructors and trainees when relieving/being relieved because I want to talk to whoever has just got out of/is about to get into the chair, because they are the ones who know/need to know about the train.

All that said, I do think that sometimes the new chaps occasionally need to put themselves forward a bit too. Hiding in corners or avoiding the messroom won’t help to break down barriers and integrate them into the wider depot community. It’s something I do when visiting other TOC’s messrooms, and it’s helped me to debunk a lot of the myths about certain locations which perpetuate around my home depot.

I think that’s all good to hear I have to say.

I’m due to start my driver training next month and to be honest the workplace atmosphere is something I’ve looked forward to. My OH has been in the industry 12 years and their experience is of a much nicer place than the one I left behind.

I appreciate that as a driver you’re alone a fair amount, but I value the work place relationships I have made in the past and their benefit to my career in terms of being a source of information exchange as well as general chat.

To be honest I mainly used this part of the site as a quick one stop shop for seeing where openings may be coming up and a good place to read up on what to expect. Advice as to how to complete the tests... not so much. I practiced the material sent out so I knew what to expect on the day, dredged for the salient points about some tests such as what the MMI was all about... but mainly I found good rest and relaxing to be the best preparation for all but the DMI, which required some research into the company obviously.

I believed that I’d have the ability and experience they were looking for in such assessments due to my previous career and personality type. I think that helped to be more pragmatic in my approach to them.

I do feel some people may get wound up by them too much and that the perceived competitive nature of the job application might lead to some interesting points of view being put across.

As time has progressed I’ve found other parts of the forum more interesting anyway.

 

[craigybagel]

It's things like this that make me surprised that more companies don't do things in reverse like TfW do. Instead of assessments being done near the beginning, they're actually the last step before a medical and job offer. By the time someone is put through for assessment, they've already been through the initial sift, a telephone interview with HR, and a full interview with a manager. So to get to this stage, they've already had to show a fair degree of aptitude. When I did my assessments, only 3 of us sat them - all of us passed and we're all qualified drivers now, and from what I've heard, the pass rate is pretty high.

That said, I do also wonder how much people really can use these forums to prepare. At the end of the day, these are aptitude tests - you either have aptitude or you don't, and I'm not entirely convinced you can "fake" it.

Moving on to the job itself - I got lucky with a very close knit training group and a wonderful trainer so as a result we have become friends for life, so in the end I really enjoyed my training. I also didn't experience any of the hostility mentioned - it might have helped that I was already a guard and knew all the drivers at the depot already, but I've never known any external candidate be treated any differently either.

The training is hard - and the job at times is hard too. But so long as you're in it for the right reasons, it's also very enjoyable, right from day one of training through to doing it for real.

 

[Stigy]

It's things like this that make me surprised that more companies don't do things in reverse like TfW do. Instead of assessments being done near the beginning, they're actually the last step before a medical and job offer. By the time someone is put through for assessment, they've already been through the initial sift, a telephone interview with HR, and a full interview with a manager. So to get to this stage, they've already had to show a fair degree of aptitude. When I did my assessments, only 3 of us sat them - all of us passed and we're all qualified drivers now, and from what I've heard, the pass rate is pretty high.

That said, I do also wonder how much people really can use these forums to prepare. At the end of the day, these are aptitude tests - you either have aptitude or you don't, and I'm not entirely convinced you can "fake" it.

Moving on to the job itself - I got lucky with a very close knit training group and a wonderful trainer so as a result we have become friends for life, so in the end I really enjoyed my training. I also didn't experience any of the hostility mentioned - it might have helped that I was already a guard and knew all the drivers at the depot already, but I've never known any external candidate be treated any differently either.

The training is hard - and the job at times is hard too. But so long as you're in it for the right reasons, it's also very enjoyable, right from day one of training through to doing it for real.

Some TOCs do do things slightly back to front, but it’s usually just interviews.

I’m not sure doing it all the other way around would work, as probably hundreds are sifted at the psychometric stage. It would be a nightmare for managers.

 

[craigybagel]

Some TOCs do do things slightly back to front, but it’s usually just interviews.

I’m not sure doing it all the other way around would work, as probably hundreds are sifted at the psychometric stage. It would be a nightmare for managers.

To be fair (and I speak from painful experience), it is indeed very difficult to get through the first sift at TfW. I've no idea though how the amount of people who get through to the next stage (Phone interview) compares with the amounts at other TOCs who get sent for assessments.

 

[hiredgun]

At the end of the day, these are aptitude tests - you either have aptitude or you don't, and I'm not entirely convinced you can "fake" it.

This is how it is designed to be.
The OPC send out some ‘practice material’ which are similar exercises but essentially different from the actual test.
Therefore the actual test, on the day, is quite fresh, to see if you have the abilities.
If they wanted people to have the actual test in advance why create and send out different ones??
As has been said in this thread, there are some people who ask a few ‘nerve settling’ questions... but a good few who want a discription of each and every test, how long you get to answer, how to go about solving the tests, any cheats that people have noticed (such as with the grey squares and the telephone directory ones) what is the pass mark etc etc...

If they have this info, there are at least 3 tests in the stage 2 which they have a great advantage over people who don’t.

If the test is to find candidates with a particular characteristic, I can hone my responses, if I know the test, to improve the results???

Chuckle brothers rail recruitment maybe... but if a TOC/FOC is paying the OPC to filter out suitable candidates and some ‘unsuitables’ slip through.. will the test not get more intense and the people who don’t have ‘inside knowlage’ ,but are suitable, be less likely to make the new grade???

 

[Eccles1983]

Sounds like some of you work in dreadful depots/toc's.

I've worked for two, and don't recognise any of these issues.

Furthermore, If I observed anyone getting the level of grief described above I would have a word. I'm all for having a laugh, and normally I initiate a lot of it on myself. But the line isnt that hard to see, and anyone stepping over it with newbies would be getting told. They could have 50 years service for all I care.

By all means listen and learn from the senior men, but they arent gods by any stretch.

 

[Applepie356]

That said, I do also wonder how much people really can use these forums to prepare. At the end of the day, these are aptitude tests - you either have aptitude or you don't, and I'm not entirely convinced you can "fake" it.

Most of the assessments can be “faked”. In the ideal world you’d only get access to the practice material supplied by OPC. But fact is you get access to a lot more if you choose tolooking online you can get tests which are pretty darn similar to the actual tests.

The only tests that probably can’t be faked is Twohand, the grey square and the one which flashes up pictures for a split second.

 

[craigybagel]

Most of the assessments can be “faked”. In the ideal world you’d only get access to the practice material supplied by OPC. But fact is you get access to a lot more if you choose tolooking online you can get tests which are pretty darn similar to the actual tests.

The only tests that probably can’t be faked is Twohand, the grey square and the one which flashes up pictures for a split second.

But is getting access to those tests really going to help much? The practice material is broadly similar after all - and unless you can get hold of the answers to the actual tests and memorise them surely you still need to have the concentration skills that they're looking for to pass the tests anyways, regardless of whether you've practiced that exact type of test before or not?

 

[Tom Quinne]

The railway is a funny place, if you come into the job (any job) very quiet not really making your presence felt your often looked on with suspicion, the flip side being if you come happy and smiley, keen to talk to people etc some will see you as big head who “knows it all”.

So some kind of happy medium, when you work in an environment with multiple people you’ll upset someone by just breathing, you can’t please everyone.

In my experience of trainee drivers (from a guards POV) 95% where really nice, although it depended on their DI. There are some drivers and DIs who are anti guard, so that will rub off on their trainee. But they are very very much in the minority, their generally the idiots no one likes anyway.

Always say hi, check stops with whoever is driving a good DI will always have an ear open when their trainee is doing comms anyway.

You may find other TOC staff across grades look down at you if you at a lower class toc (yes I know!) for example some TOCs training staff bread into their new staff that their somehow better than X toc that’s played out when the new guys enter the real world.

When I was at a local operator, some staff at the big red toc wouldn’t even say hi when you walked past them on the platform, they’d also plonk themselves in 1st class on your train without asking.

My advice would be go in learn what you need to learn, do your job go hone safe.
The quicker you reach the point in life you stop caring what people think about you the is the point in life your actually happier.

 

[Star S W 9]

I agree with you. Some of the guys going for the job do little to no homework. Come on rail forums just for assessment answers with the concept that ‘I passed the application and tests’ Easy, roll on the big dollar.

I’ll provide an insight into what this job is really like once you’ve passed that first hurdle. This also includes a personal experience of the process.
This job is one of those that you can either do or not at all. There’s countless threads regarding training courses, but a thing to add the application tests are not even the start of the journey. You get 2 shots at your assessments.
- There’s a lot of them. I believe I did around 24. You’re looking at approx 92% pass mark. It’s not multiple choice either...doesn’t sound bad, but it doesn’t take much to fall below that. They don’t want you to fail, but it’s not cotton wool and fluffy. They do boot people who don’t pull their way. (You don’t get countless warnings. I was a good student with 98-100%. I got 94% in one exam. It’s a pass, but the Trainer wasn’t happy with my decline in performance. The trainer is highly observant in everyone and watches everything you do. They use your attitude, exams, knowledge retention to build a picture of whether you can do the job. They’ll keep that record for your driving career too. This ultimately builds a profile of you in your career. Further information to build your profile later on are downloads, ride outs, rules assessments, simulator assessments, incident record. The railway loves paper trails. (Well digital ones now)

- The simulator assessment...tough as nails
- pass out...tough as nails. Admittedly I failed my first attempt at pass out. I got another go, but you can’t mess the second shot up! You’ll get a training analysis to see how they can help you and fill in the gaps and deficiencies...on your second assessment day it’s going to be luck. It was highly stressful!

Then there’s the job itself with routine assessments. They are super strict. Sadly I’ve lost count of those that have been booted from the job.
The old saying ‘hard to get, easy to lose’ is true. However a positive, honest attitude will see you fine.

It’s a lifestyle too...

If you’re going for the job to just chase the money (fair enough)...but be warned. It gets boring quick! The key word here is boring...it won’t take long before that boredom sees you out of the job. I’ve seen many come and go from all types of backgrounds. In most cases the toc will try and support you and offer alternative employment if possible, But how much would it suck though to be on gateline whilst a colleague walks by with a coffee in hand and a smile as they make their way to the train they’re about to drive?

To further add you have to prove yourself when you’re a trainee. You’ll hear “you’re not drivers yet”, “you have to earn your key”. My toc introduced a separate uniform for trainees, very honestly to tailor back the cockiness. It’s very much like a military style training attitude. As a trainee you’re on the bottom of the pile, replaceable and zilch respect is given to you. I’ve mentioned this because it’s all very well to ‘wing’ the Psychometric exams, simply by coming on here and purging the answers. However, as the OP has stated it’s only the start of your journey. If you’re weak to begin with, you will possibly struggle with this job.

On the positive note, once you passed the application, trainee and 3yr probationary period...this job is super awesome! By this stage you learn the upmost respect for it and truly feel like you’ve earned this job.

I'm v.glad to have found this, I'm at my first V.S.E stage and am awaiting results. Alot of what you've mentioned, I can relate too.
I await my results and will go from there.
What u wrote was very honest and raw, I hope many other 'prospects' find it useful too.
We all know it's not going to be easy, and I personally look forward to earning the job through sheer will and determination