• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Football

REVUpminster

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
746
Location
Paignton
Can't see West Ham doing Arsenal any favors on Sunday.

Hat tip to Villa for making the Champions League off the back of tonight's result. Fair play to them.
West Ham will probably play Joseph Anang in goal. He can't be worse than Fabianski or Areola.

 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,970
Location
Sunny South Lancs
Bonkers!
I trust the FA will see sense and say 'no'. There is the world of difference between some summer round-robin competition before the season starts between teams from different countries and an important end of-season six-pointer. Those are for the fans who turned up sleet not withstanding, who did the 200 mile round trip on New Year's Day, who bought their season ticket in good faith. If it goes ahead, we'll have the Manchester derby in Abu Dhabi, a Newcastle home game in Riyadh,and Chelsea playing Arsenal, home and away in Hartford and Jefferson City (or in some quarter-filled 'Football' stadium with a performance by Post Malone at half time). They are bleating about the intensity of the fixture list, travelling half way round the world for a league game won't help. Won't affect me - I don't think they'll reach down to the National League 'step' system!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cprgr2175x7o

I don't get the impression FIFA is actually supporting the idea, rather they think it's time they were better informed about the various implications. My own take on reading the article is that FIFA would prefer to block the idea completely but needs more information in case of any legal challenges. Of course that's not to say I have a reliable crystal ball...
 

Ted633

Member
Joined
15 Mar 2018
Messages
280
West Ham will probably play Joseph Anang in goal. He can't be worse than Fabianski or Areola.

Really? West Hams defence has been very suspect this season, but most of that has been down to horrendous play from the defenders. Areola especially has had some fantastic games and stopped some defeats being much worse!
 

75A

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2021
Messages
1,480
Location
Ireland (ex Brighton 75A)
According to the BBC Sport website; the Premier League clubs will be voting on June 6th about doing away with VAR.
What do we think?
 
Last edited:

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,719
Location
Another planet...
I see the Premier League clubs will be voting on June 6th about doing away with VAR.
What do we think?
My objections are not with VAR itself, but with the way it's implemented. I'd prefer a similar system to that used in tennis: each team has 3 appeals per game, with unsuccessful appeals deducted. An additional 1 appeal available (added to the total of unused appeals) for each team in the event of extra time.

A bigger issue for me is the current policy of delaying the flag for offside until a player "becomes active". In my view a player should be considered active the moment they move towards the ball, and if they were in an offside position at the last forward pass the flag should go up. The current policy is potentially dangerous to player safety and I fear it's only a matter of time before a player suffers a needless serious injury.

I'd also support referees (and the VAR team) being "mic-ed up" as they are in Rugby League.
 

JD2168

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2022
Messages
990
Location
Sheffield
VAR takes too long to make decisions at times with a lack of information for fans in the ground a major problem as they are left largely in the dark whilst the public watching on television & the commentators know more than them. There have also been some dubious decisions such as the Luis Diaz no goal against Tottenham.

The offside law is also annoying particularly when you are given offside for a toe, knee, elbow or something other random.

I do agree that the flag should go up earlier as I am sure a player will pick up a needless hamstring injury due to it being delayed.
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,280
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
I see the Premier League clubs will be voting on June 6th about doing away with VAR.
What do we think?
I think it should be scrapped. Also I think after match television replays should be scrapped as well. Leave all decisions to the referee & lensmen how it used to be.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,787
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I think it should be scrapped. Also I think after match television replays should be scrapped as well. Leave all decisions to the referee & lensmen how it used to be.
I agree about scrapping VAR, but television replays? What would that achieve? Given media technology today even if that happened, people would just go over the coverage themselves. I'm afraid that second idea is a couple of decades too late.
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,280
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
I agree about scrapping VAR, but television replays? What would that achieve?
My point is that scrapping VAR would be good, but carrying on with multi angle slow motion television replays to analyse if the referee/linesman was correct or not would still leave football in a bad place. By all means show replays at normal speed, but let the match officials on the field make their decisions and leave it at that.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
My point is that scrapping VAR would be good, but carrying on with multi angle slow motion television replays to analyse if the referee/linesman was correct or not would still leave football in a bad place. By all means show replays at normal speed, but let the match officials on the field make their decisions and leave it at that.
So fans should not get the benefit of slow motion replays now? These have been a thing since the 1970s.
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,280
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
So fans should not get the benefit of slow motion replays now? These have been a thing since the 1970s.
It’s the use of slow motion replays to prove correct or otherwise the decisions of the match officials. How much of a benefit this is I don’t know. How will multi angle replays on MOTD six hours after the match change anything?

Football is a sport to be enjoyed in the moment, not a science to be analysed.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
It’s the use of slow motion replays to prove correct or otherwise the decisions of the match officials. How much of a benefit this is I don’t know. How will multi angle replays on MOTD six hours after the match change anything?

Football is a sport to be enjoyed in the moment, not a science to be analysed.
Oh I agree with that, just not sure you can put the genie back in the box. Anyone can slow a video down now and put it on social media anyway.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,787
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
My point is that scrapping VAR would be good, but carrying on with multi angle slow motion television replays to analyse if the referee/linesman was correct or not would still leave football in a bad place. By all means show replays at normal speed, but let the match officials on the field make their decisions and leave it at that.
Football is not in a bad place because of action replays, its always interesting to see if officials do get it right or not in live action. I'm sure even they will look at decisions and learn from them.

And besides, most games right down into the semi-pro leagues are broadcast in full and available to teams and fans, who in turn can record and analyse them for themselves.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,923
I think that upon reflection the biggest problem with VAR is that people expected it to deliver perfection, which realistically it never could. Too much in football is subjective; it isn't a non-contact sport. When people then got a bit frustrated that it wasn't delivering perfection, PGMOL starting delving into a rabbit hole and making things worse and worse in their attempts to make things better.

But the genie is out of the bottle, so getting rid of it completely seems an extreme over-reaction. (And doing so because Wolves are still miffed that they're this season's biggest VAR losers and forced the vote would be even worse)

What should happen now?

1 - keep the goal line technology - that seems to be working fine (I know there have been a tiny number of issues like the one at the Villa back in lockdown)

2 - adopt the semi-automated offside that FIFA use. Quicker and better. I think this is happening next season

3 - accept that total transparency is the only sensible way forward and move to something as close as possible to what rugby union have - review with VAR and ref on the big screen, visible and audible in real time for all in the ground and watching on TV. Keeping it like a secret society and only allowing certain clips to be heard retrospectively on a Sky TV programme is just a nonsense

4 - get a set of VAR officials who have no link at all to the on-field referees. Having a single set of officials who perform both roles interchangeably creates a conflict of interest, where it can look like the VAR is reticent to intervene because it might be seen as suggesting the match ref has got something wrong, and he knows that tomorrow / next week *he* is the match ref, and well, how would he feel if that happened?

5 - try and define exactly what "clear and obvious" means. Nobody knows right now

6 - speed it all up. If the various cameras are working, once the ref and VAR start their discussion they've got 90 seconds to make their minds up. Any longer and stick with the on-field decision

7 - improve the quality of on-field referees, starting with the basics, like their fitness levels
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,280
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
The interrogation of VAR has caused many football fans to miss their last bus home :)

Here’s another idea. As VAR has now unfortunately become an integral part of the game, include the interrogation of VAR as part of the 90 minutes playing time. In other words don’t stop the match clock whilst off field officials are studying slow motion, zoomed in, multi angle replays.

Can’t see that being approved somehow…..
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
2,745
I think that upon reflection the biggest problem with VAR is that people expected it to deliver perfection, which realistically it never could. Too much in football is subjective; it isn't a non-contact sport. When people then got a bit frustrated that it wasn't delivering perfection, PGMOL starting delving into a rabbit hole and making things worse and worse in their attempts to make things better.

But the genie is out of the bottle, so getting rid of it completely seems an extreme over-reaction. (And doing so because Wolves are still miffed that they're this season's biggest VAR losers and forced the vote would be even worse)

What should happen now?

1 - keep the goal line technology - that seems to be working fine (I know there have been a tiny number of issues like the one at the Villa back in lockdown)

2 - adopt the semi-automated offside that FIFA use. Quicker and better. I think this is happening next season

3 - accept that total transparency is the only sensible way forward and move to something as close as possible to what rugby union have - review with VAR and ref on the big screen, visible and audible in real time for all in the ground and watching on TV. Keeping it like a secret society and only allowing certain clips to be heard retrospectively on a Sky TV programme is just a nonsense

4 - get a set of VAR officials who have no link at all to the on-field referees. Having a single set of officials who perform both roles interchangeably creates a conflict of interest, where it can look like the VAR is reticent to intervene because it might be seen as suggesting the match ref has got something wrong, and he knows that tomorrow / next week *he* is the match ref, and well, how would he feel if that happened?

5 - try and define exactly what "clear and obvious" means. Nobody knows right now

6 - speed it all up. If the various cameras are working, once the ref and VAR start their discussion they've got 90 seconds to make their minds up. Any longer and stick with the on-field decision

7 - improve the quality of on-field referees, starting with the basics, like their fitness levels
I mostly agree, though I think I'd argue against 4. Having VAR staffed by people who are also referees in other weeks means they have the experience out on the pitch and hopefully are making decisions consistent with what they would on the pitch.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,552
1 - keep the goal line technology - that seems to be working fine (I know there have been a tiny number of issues like the one at the Villa back in lockdown)
Goal line technology is completely separate to VAR and is used throughout the EFL as well as in the Premier League (unlike VAR, it doesn't cost a huge amount to put in place).

2 - adopt the semi-automated offside that FIFA use. Quicker and better. I think this is happening next season
Yep, next season. It has to be an improvement.
3 - accept that total transparency is the only sensible way forward and move to something as close as possible to what rugby union have - review with VAR and ref on the big screen, visible and audible in real time for all in the ground and watching on TV. Keeping it like a secret society and only allowing certain clips to be heard retrospectively on a Sky TV programme is just a nonsense
Agreed - the problem is not all grounds have suitable big screens. As an aside, it took cricket several years to learn this too and the review system is all the better for including the paying attendees at the ground.
4 - get a set of VAR officials who have no link at all to the on-field referees.
Maybe, I'm not sure though.
5 - try and define exactly what "clear and obvious" means. Nobody knows right now
The greyest of grey areas!
6 - speed it all up.
Yes, it should really take no more than 15 seconds to decide if there's anything to look at, and there needs to be a further cut-off - if you can't decide it was a foul in 30 seconds then it isn't a clear and obvious error. Semi-automated offside will help a great deal with this.
7 - improve the quality of on-field referees, starting with the basics, like their fitness levels
They are fitter than most people realise, and they really are the best we have. The problem is that the potential for getting better referees in the future is harmed by the abuse and violence they are on the receiving end of at even the lowest levels, which means that those that stay involved are those with the thickest skins.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,384
Location
Fenny Stratford
Just bin VAR and go back to the old ways.

They wont so I will agree with @SteveM70 but also add the concept of "umpires call" as per cricket when things are unclear.

Having VAR staffed by people who are also referees in other weeks means they have the experience out on the pitch and hopefully are making decisions consistent with what they would on the pitch.
You don't need any special skills to be a VAR person. Absolutely none at all. You are being asked simple yes or no questions based on 140000 video angles. If you are unsure then the answer is no. Lets not over think this...................
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,923
Goal line technology is completely separate to VAR and is used throughout the EFL as well as in the Premier League

Only in the Championship, I think? Not sure what happens to clubs relegated into league one as their grounds will be fitted with the equipment. I assume it isn't used so they have consistency across all games in the division?


Agreed - the problem is not all grounds have suitable big screens

For VAR at the moment its only the premier league - does any ground not have a big screen of any sort?


They are fitter than most people realise, and they really are the best we have

Its improving, but the days of fat Lee Mason and Jon Moss are not too far in the past
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,552
For VAR at the moment its only the premier league - does any ground not have a big screen of any sort?
I've been at one regularly this season.

Its improving, but the days of fat Lee Mason and Jon Moss are not too far in the past
That's mostly about perception, rather than reality. These days they are full time and have all sorts of testing to make sure they meet the required standards of fitness.
 

dangie

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,280
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
Just bin VAR and go back to the old ways.
From the BBC:
Wolves have stated nine reasons for submitting the resolution in a bid to get VAR scrapped. They include:

  • Impact on goal celebrations and the spontaneous passion that makes football special.
  • Frustration and confusion inside stadiums due to lengthy VAR checks and poor communication.
  • A more hostile atmosphere with protests, booing of Premier League anthem and chants against VAR.
  • Overreach of VAR's original purpose to correct clear and obvious mistakes, now overanalysing subjective decisions and compromising the game's fluidity and integrity.
  • Diminished accountability of on-field officials, due to safety net of VAR, leading to an erosion of authority on the pitch.
  • Continued errors despite VAR, with supporters unable to accept human error after multiple views and replays, damaging confidence in officiating standards.
  • Disruption of the Premier League's fast pace with lengthy VAR checks and more added time, causing matches to run excessively long.
  • Constant discourse about VAR decisions often overshadowing the match itself, and tarnishing the reputation of the league.
  • Erosion of trust and reputation, with VAR fuelling completely nonsensical allegations of corruption.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,384
Location
Fenny Stratford
Wolves have stated nine reasons for submitting the resolution in a bid to get VAR scrapped.
I said many of these things when VAR was introduced. It adds nothing and should be withdrawn and reconsidered. I am not against the use of technology but it has be done in such a way as to actually improve things!
 

SJL2020

Member
Joined
18 Jan 2020
Messages
318
Location
Rossett
For VAR at the moment its only the premier league - does any ground not have a big screen of any sort?
There are two current PL grounds that don't have large screens. Guess which two? (Clue: they are the two clubs that got to interview Richard Masters for his job)
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,552
There are two current PL grounds that don't have large screens. Guess which two? (Clue: they are the two clubs that got to interview Richard Masters for his job)
That must be 3 grounds then, because I'm pretty sure Masters was in place before we (Luton Town) were part of the Premier League.
 

SJL2020

Member
Joined
18 Jan 2020
Messages
318
Location
Rossett
That must be 3 grounds then, because I'm pretty sure Masters was in place before we (Luton Town) were part of the Premier League.
OK, for the next couple of days there are 3 grounds.

But the other two have been PL clubs since its inception so have had plenty of time to install them as part of their various ground developments over the years.
 

Top