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Football

Xenophon PCDGS

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Running up the ref and trying to argue or gesture that a player should be sent off could very well be against the laws of the game. Indeed there have been numerous attempts to try to crack down on it within the game - the rules were changed in 2006 so that refs can send off players who "confront match officials and use offensive language or make gestures towards them" - which certainly would catch Ronaldo's actions in that game against England. Sadly it seems refs tend not to use those powers. I bet if they did we would see officials given much more respect by players.

Why bring a matter that was covered by rule changes twelve years ago in 2006 into this discussion?
 
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WelshBluebird

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Why bring a matter that was covered by rule changes twelve years ago in 2006 into this discussion?

Apologies that was a typo. meant 2016.
And the relevance is that those antics are part of the reason why so many people dislike Ronaldo.
And its also pretty frustrating that referees don't use power they have to book or send him off when he does act like that, just because he's Ronaldo.

As I said in the rest of my post (which you conveniently have ignored), the way he (and some other players like Pepe) act on the pitch is an utter disgrace.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Ronaldo is a fantastic player, extremely highly skilled and blessed with fantastic ability. He is also a cheat. It is all so unnecessary. He doesn't need to cheat to win games but he does. He chooses to be a cheat and seems to revel in it. It is clear you are happy to support cheating and shamming which I find strange.

Of course, this could be said by some to be some flawed character trait found more in those players from "Latin" countries and one that would never be seen in the more northerly European countries. Perhaps those older in years could think of exceptions to this rule, one being the English forward by the name of Francis Lee who was endowed with the Chinese nickname of "Won Lee Pen" as a token of esteem for his particular mode of play for both club and country.
 

61653 HTAFC

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So you make a comparison between "winking" and what you state above...o_O
Both are not examples of what might be termed sportsman-like behaviour. I thought that was obvious.

Of course, this could be said by some to be some flawed character trait found more in those players from "Latin" countries and one that would never be seen in the more northerly European countries. Perhaps those older in years could think of exceptions to this rule, one being the English forward by the name of Francis Lee who was endowed with the Chinese nickname of "Won Lee Pen" as a token of esteem for his particular mode of play for both club and country.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic is another example of a very gifted player from a Northern European national team, who isn't averse to employing "dirty tricks" to gain an advantage.

There is an argument that Ronaldo gets more hate than he deserves... but let's look at why he is so disliked by England fans in particular:
  • The Rooney incident. See Maradona's "Hand of God" as a comparison. Whilst not a breaking of the rules as Maradona's was, to exploit the weaknesses of a club teammate in such a cynical way was seen as poor form. The smug wink afterwards just rubs salt in the wound!
  • His general demeanour. Arrogance to "Primadonna" levels (was that where you were going with the ballet reference by the way?) is generally frowned upon by English football supporters. Ronaldo has it in spades!
  • Cheating & rule-breaking. Ronaldo is prone to "taking a tumble" in the box on occasion. Admittedly Dele Alli also has form for this, but if he tries it in an England shirt I expect he'll not be lauded upon his return... unless it helps win us the trophy of course!
  • The other "Damned United". Newton Heath fans love to tell others how they are "loved, hated, never ignored" and they're partially correct! His spell at United was during their period of relative dominance, and as a member of that team who grabbed the backpage headlines for good and bad, he too is loved and hated, but hard to ignore.
  • Portugal. Ronaldo has arguably carried a modestly talented national team to levels way beyond the sum of their parts without him. That is something to be admired, and I haven't heard even his harshest critics try to deny that. However the England team have been on the receiving end of the CR7-powered Portugal's "over-achievement"!
 

WelshBluebird

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Portugal. Ronaldo has arguably carried a modestly talented national team to levels way beyond the sum of their parts without him. That is something to be admired, and I haven't heard even his harshest critics try to deny that. However the England team have been on the receiving end of the CR7-powered Portugal's "over-achievement"!

Although at the same time, my Portugese friend has said even they get annoyed with him due to his attitude, his diving / play acting and the fact that at least they feel he doesn't perform as well for them as he does for his clubs (although this World Cup may be different as he has already doubled his goal tally for them).
 

The_Train

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Just going on the argument about cheating, it got me thinking about how we react to it in differing scenarios. We (and by we, I mean England fans) talk a lot about the incidents that have had negative impacts on us, such as Maradona and his hand, Simeone getting Beckham sent off and Ronaldo and his wink and we talk about these because they have impacted us negatively at major tournaments. I wonder if the fans of these nations who have benefitted from this cheating talk about it quite so much and how they view the incidents?

Also, I'd be interested to hear how England fans would react if in a few weeks time we are in the World Cup final and Dele Alli feigns an injury that gets an opposing player sent off allowing us to play for 60 minutes with an advantage or Harry Kane diving to win a penalty in the last minute and bringing us the World Cup home. I know these scenarios are unlikely now VAR has been implemented but would cheating in a way to influence the result in our favour cloud people's judgement?
 

Iskra

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Both are not examples of what might be termed sportsman-like behaviour. I thought that was obvious.


Zlatan Ibrahimovic is another example of a very gifted player from a Northern European national team, who isn't averse to employing "dirty tricks" to gain an advantage.

There is an argument that Ronaldo gets more hate than he deserves... but let's look at why he is so disliked by England fans in particular:
  • The Rooney incident. See Maradona's "Hand of God" as a comparison. Whilst not a breaking of the rules as Maradona's was, to exploit the weaknesses of a club teammate in such a cynical way was seen as poor form. The smug wink afterwards just rubs salt in the wound!
  • His general demeanour. Arrogance to "Primadonna" levels (was that where you were going with the ballet reference by the way?) is generally frowned upon by English football supporters. Ronaldo has it in spades!
  • Cheating & rule-breaking. Ronaldo is prone to "taking a tumble" in the box on occasion. Admittedly Dele Alli also has form for this, but if he tries it in an England shirt I expect he'll not be lauded upon his return... unless it helps win us the trophy of course!
  • The other "Damned United". Newton Heath fans love to tell others how they are "loved, hated, never ignored" and they're partially correct! His spell at United was during their period of relative dominance, and as a member of that team who grabbed the backpage headlines for good and bad, he too is loved and hated, but hard to ignore.
  • Portugal. Ronaldo has arguably carried a modestly talented national team to levels way beyond the sum of their parts without him. That is something to be admired, and I haven't heard even his harshest critics try to deny that. However the England team have been on the receiving end of the CR7-powered Portugal's "over-achievement"!

Good post, but can we please avoid referring to Manchester United as ‘United’ like they are the only United. It’s disrespectful to the many offer clubs with United in the title, as well as potentially confusing. It’s bad enough with the media doing it.
 

Iskra

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Just going on the argument about cheating, it got me thinking about how we react to it in differing scenarios. We (and by we, I mean England fans) talk a lot about the incidents that have had negative impacts on us, such as Maradona and his hand, Simeone getting Beckham sent off and Ronaldo and his wink and we talk about these because they have impacted us negatively at major tournaments. I wonder if the fans of these nations who have benefitted from this cheating talk about it quite so much and how they view the incidents?

Also, I'd be interested to hear how England fans would react if in a few weeks time we are in the World Cup final and Dele Alli feigns an injury that gets an opposing player sent off allowing us to play for 60 minutes with an advantage or Harry Kane diving to win a penalty in the last minute and bringing us the World Cup home. I know these scenarios are unlikely now VAR has been implemented but would cheating in a way to influence the result in our favour cloud people's judgement?

Kane had two opportunities to go down the other night and chose not to.

I can only speak for myself, but I dislike players who play for my club who go down too easily, and I’m not afraid to vocalise that no matter how popular they are with fellow fans.

I think the English have an acute sense of fair play, perhaps to the point of naivety.
 

The_Train

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Kane had two opportunities to go down the other night and chose not to.

I can only speak for myself, but I dislike players who play for my club who go down too easily, and I’m not afraid to vocalise they no matter how popular they are.

I think the English have an acute sense of fair play, perhaps to the point of naivety.

I didn't pick Kane or Alli out because I believe they are that type of player, was purely just using them as examples.

You have the same thought process as me. Luckily I've never played with players who would do literally anything to win a game because I would struggle to be a team mate of a player like that. If an England player chose to act in such a way in order for us to be 'successful' I would struggle to celebrate it that's for sure
 

61653 HTAFC

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Good post, but can we please avoid referring to Manchester United as ‘United’ like they are the only United. It’s disrespectful to the many offer clubs with United in the title, as well as potentially confusing. It’s bad enough with the media doing it.
Fair point, though in the context of my post it's obvious which United I meant. Unless Cristiano had a loan spell at Torquay or Southend while with the Manchester United academy.

Edit to avoid a double-post:
What a goal by Modric!

Looks like Messi might be home earlier than expected!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Both are not examples of what might be termed sportsman-like behaviour. I thought that was obvious.

From the many reported instances of the behaviour of "sportsmen" both at home and abroad, I am sure many people would not wish to have their personal reputations tarnished by comparisons to certain behaviour shown in both private and public life by those referred to as "sportsmen".
 

DarloRich

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Some terrible diving and cheating in the Brazil v Costa Rica game. Neymar dived for a penalty which was VAR'd off. His team mates were just as bad. The other side were falling about at every chance. One of them went down cluthcing his face after absolutly no contact. Shameful. FIFA must stop this.

Coutinho & Neymar got a poor Brazil side out of jail with 2 flattering stoppage time goals. They didn't deserve it imo. Costa Rica were very well organised and frustrated Brazil at every turn.
 

Pakenhamtrain

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Some terrible diving and cheating in the Brazil v Costa Rica game. Neymar dived for a penalty which was VAR'd off. His team mates were just as bad. The other side were falling about at every chance. One of them went down cluthcing his face after absolutly no contact. Shameful. FIFA must stop this.
What was funny about the Costa Rica one was Neymar went and had a sook about it!

On our coverage we have Craig Foster try to justify the Neymar one as a penalty. This is the same person at half time gave us this thrilling insight:
Brazil are wearing blue
 

WelshBluebird

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One of them went down cluthcing his face after absolutly no contact.

I missed most of that incident and only very briefly saw part of a replay, but it looked like the Brazil player put his hand in the Costa Rica player's face? I couldn't really tell if there was contact or not, but I was under the impression that a hand to the face of an opponent meant a red card regardless of how much contact there actually was.
 

BlueFox

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I was under the impression that a hand to the face of an opponent meant a red card regardless of how much contact there actually was.

The myth that "raising your hand" is an automatic red card is something commentators have been saying for years, but there's nothing in the laws of the game to say that.
The laws of the game says a player is guilty of violent conduct (a red card offence) if "he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball."
 

61653 HTAFC

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From the many reported instances of the behaviour of "sportsmen" both at home and abroad, I am sure many people would not wish to have their personal reputations tarnished by comparisons to certain behaviour shown in both private and public life by those referred to as "sportsmen".
So the darker side of CR7's game doesn't in any way detract from your admiration of him? Nobody on this thread has criticised him for his skill with the ball. I and others have criticised the way he conducts himself without the ball.

One thing that Ronaldo can be credited for is that if we take the "flawed genius" argument, his flaws are not detrimental to his performances- unlike George Best for example whose career and life was shortened by the booze.
However he pales in comparison to Pele who didn't feel the need to hit the floor whenever beaten to a 50/50.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So the darker side of CR7's game doesn't in any way detract from your admiration of him? Nobody on this thread has criticised him for his skill with the ball. I and others have criticised the way he conducts himself without the ball. One thing that Ronaldo can be credited for is that if we take the "flawed genius" argument, his flaws are not detrimental to his performances- unlike George Best for example whose career and life was shortened by the booze. However he pales in comparison to Pele who didn't feel the need to hit the floor whenever beaten to a 50/50.

Why on earth does the name of a Portuguese footballer seem forever to be obliged to be attached to a totally unrelated matter. What I was making reference to was the comment of "sportsmanlike-behaviour" that was made in an earlier posting, which seems to hark back to the days of a British public school ethos:-
"Play up!
Play up!
And play the game"


That sentiment is totally and utterly unrelated to "the behaviour of sportsmen" in the 21st century. I am sure that Jimmy Anderson did not appreciate having a younger member of the international cricket team pouring a full glass of alcoholic liquid over his head.
 
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fowler9

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Serbia denied a nailed on penalty and Switzerlands goals scored by Kosovans who celebrated by making an Albanian eagle symbol. I'd hate to be in the wrong bar in Kaliningrad tonight. Ha ha. Not taking sides by the way, just a bit of politics.
 

Antman

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Serbia denied a nailed on penalty and Switzerlands goals scored by Kosovans who celebrated by making an Albanian eagle symbol. I'd hate to be in the wrong bar in Kaliningrad tonight. Ha ha. Not taking sides by the way, just a bit of politics.

Mitrovic was fouled by not one but two Swiss players, VAR is only as good as the person monitoring it.
 

The_Train

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2-0 thanks to a Kane penalty. A penalty won without any need for diving may I add ;)
 

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