Forgetting to carry a Railcard - how do you think passengers should be treated?

[MarlowDonkey]

Put it this way - if you bought something online and it was to be held in store, but you forgot all your details at the store, would they just give it to you on the basis that you claim you've already paid?

If you had purchased it with a discount card validated at point of purchase, I wouldn't expect that they would require sight of the discount card, just whatever evidence they needed for full price collections.

 

[maniacmartin]

So, I want to buy APs for a group of 10 friends and myself to go on an outing. Before the APs go on sale, I need to go to each of my friends and collect their railcards. Only once I am in possession of their railcards can I book my 10 AP tickets with adjacent seat reservations.

This clearly isn't feasible.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Only once I am in possession of their railcards can I book my 10 AP tickets with adjacent seat reservations.

This clearly isn't feasible.

Assuming you are booking on-line, you don't need to know any more than what the security questions are to validate the possession of a Railcard. The serial number and name of the holder should suffice unless ticket vendors wanted something stronger. Physical possession of the Railcard would not seem necessary.

The basic point is that entitlement to a discounted ticket could be validated at point of sale rather than at point of travel. Other parts of the travel industry offer discounted tickets. How do they handle it?

 

[Class377]

If you had purchased it with a discount card validated at point of purchase, I wouldn't expect that they would require sight of the discount card, just whatever evidence they needed for full price collections.

But if I bought it online with the vague promise that when I collected it I'd hand over 34% payment then, if I turned up without that part payment I would not expect it. You have to remember that TVMs don't require validation of the railcard so proof is needed when on board - TMs can rarely tell if a ticket was from an office or a machine!

You're paying £30 to get a substantial discount on travel - a great deal. Is it really that hard to remember to bring the railcard with you?

 

[Squaddie]

Why make the system more complicated than it needs to be?

It appears to me to be perfectly straightforward: if you are travelling on a discounted fare then you must also carry the railcard used to obtain the discount and be prepared to show it; if you do not, then your ticket is invalid and you will have to buy a new one (and, possibly, face further penalties for travelling without a valid ticket). There is no need for a technological solution.

 

[Class377]

Why make the system more complicated than it needs to be?

It appears to me to be perfectly straightforward: if you are travelling on a discounted fare then you must also carry the railcard used to obtain the discount and be prepared to show it; if you do not, then your ticket is invalid and you will have to buy a new one (and, possibly, face further penalties for travelling without a valid ticket). There is no need for a technological solution.

Exactly - as I've stated, you're being given a great deal by owning a railcard anyway, the only real "string" attached is that you need to show it with your ticket. If you get one online, it's a single card so it can go in your wallet (so you should never lose it, and if you do, you're not going to be able to buy a ticket anyway), and from a ticket office you get a separate wallet anyway so it's pretty hard to lose!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

You're paying £30 to get a substantial discount on travel - a great deal. Is it really that hard to remember to bring the railcard with you?

The basic point is that the penalty for failing to carry the Railcard is disproportionate. To me it seems very logical to introduce an additional anti-fraud check at point of sale with the advantage that it would then represent sufficient evidence when travelling.

 

[Class377]

The basic point is that the penalty for failing to carry the Railcard is disproportionate. To me it seems very logical to introduce an additional anti-fraud check at point of sale with the advantage that it would then represent sufficient evidence when travelling.

It isn't a penalty for failing to carry the railcard. It's failing to be eligible for the discounted ticket. Thousands of other passengers pay this "penalty" every single day by travelling around on undiscounted tickets and don't seem to mind it too much!

 

[bb21]

The basic point is that the penalty for failing to carry the Railcard is disproportionate. To me it seems very logical to introduce an additional anti-fraud check at point of sale with the advantage that it would then represent sufficient evidence when travelling.

You are trying to use a hammer to crack a nut. As I said, if your gripe is with the fact that people accidentally forget their Railcards are charged full fare regardless, then there already are good solutions around, such as those employed by EMT, or a number of other TOCs as yorkie alluded to.

What you are proposing just transfers the burden of carrying your Railcard to carrying another form of ID. On top of that, you are adding layers of difficulties at various stages of the ticket buying process, for millions of additional expenses. None of this makes any sense.

In all other forms of transport, the discount needs to be verified at the point of use, sometimes at the point of sale as well, not instead.

 

[alastair]

Exactly - as I've stated, you're being given a great deal by owning a railcard anyway, the only real "string" attached is that you need to show it with your ticket. If you get one online, it's a single card so it can go in your wallet (so you should never lose it, and if you do, you're not going to be able to buy a ticket anyway), and from a ticket office you get a separate wallet anyway so it's pretty hard to lose!

Railcards are a "great deal"? A bit OTT I think,more like bringing what are often outrageous fares down to a semi-affordable level. I can truthfully say that without my Network card my use of rail would be minimal.

Surely railcards were introduced purely for good commercial reasons to fill empty seats not to do anyone a favour?

 

[Class377]

Railcards are a "great deal"? A bit OTT I think,more like bringing what are often outrageous fares down to a semi-affordable level. I can truthfully say that without my Network card my use of rail would be minimal.

Surely railcards were introduced purely for good commercial reasons to fill empty seats not to do anyone a favour?

I'd argue that making it affordable to the point that you're going to be using it more is a good deal in itself.

At any rate, you wouldn't leave your railcard at home, then turn up and demand the cheaper fare, would you?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

What you are proposing just transfers the burden of carrying your Railcard to carrying another form of ID.

Whenever you buy an advance return ticket and have it delivered by post, it comes with two tickets, two or more ticket sized seat reservations and a credit card receipt. If previously validated that you had a valid Railcard, that can be recorded on the tickets or accompanying documents. I accept that it's not something the current systems do, but it remains my view that they should. The need for other ID is only as a anti-fraud device as a means of being able to validate that the passenger was the owner of the Railcard.

If the rail industry ever gets round to offering a virtual Railcard, one that only exists electronically, that's the way they would have to go.

 

[Class377]

But quite simply, what is the problem with the current railcard? If you're stupid enough to leave it at home (which is pretty hard, given most are done online and so fit into your wallet - you wouldn't leave your credit cards at home would you?) then you invalidate the tickets! Why should the rail industry change their whole system for a tiny minority of mistakes?

 

[codenamecuebal]

But quite simply, what is the problem with the current railcard? If you're stupid enough to leave it at home (which is pretty hard, given most are done online and so fit into your wallet - you wouldn't leave your credit cards at home would you?) then you invalidate the tickets! Why should the rail industry change their whole system for a tiny minority of mistakes?

Because not everyone is a rail enthusiast who carries around a copy of the NRCoC and their railcard at all times.

Wallets aren't infinitely big and people make mistakes. TOCs make mistakes. People are generally punished. TOCs keep the fares and generally profit from their mistakes (repayment from NR). It's not too difficult for a TOC, when you've got a healthy surplus, to administrate a system where if you provide proof of entitlement, you are refunded for the replacement ticket you purchased.

Just because the NRCoC says something doesn't mean you need to do everything by the book. We're all people after all.

 

[Nick W]

I suspect the train companies know very well that charging a flat fee, over and above the true cost would come under extortion. I suspect Northern Rail's lawyers have done their homework very carefully, and have ways of proving the £80 penalty is the average cost.

However charging a "full fare" is a legitimate way to extract lots of money from passengers without falling foul of extortion. Obviously it goes against the moral compass of many train managers, perhaps more so those who themselves err now and then, and hence many provide discretion. Not enough people will fall foul of it for it to become political, so I suspect this practice will unfortunately continue.

 

[Class377]

Because not everyone is a rail enthusiast who carries around a copy of the NRCoC and their railcard at all times.

Wallets aren't infinitely big and people make mistakes. TOCs make mistakes. People are generally punished. TOCs keep the fares and generally profit from their mistakes (repayment from NR). It's not too difficult for a TOC, when you've got a healthy surplus, to administrate a system where if you provide proof of entitlement, you are refunded for the replacement ticket you purchased.

Just because the NRCoC says something doesn't mean you need to do everything by the book. We're all people after all.

I wouldn't describe myself as a rail enthusiast and I don't carry NRCoC around with me.

It's very very simple - have your railcard (discount card) with you and get the discount it gives you! I wouldn't go into Starbucks, tell them I have a loyalty card at home which would give me a free coffee, so can I have it now even though I've forgotten it, so why should something similar work on the railways?

Remembering a railcard quite simply is a very minor thing to do to get a very good discount, why try and overwrite the system that already works well?

 

[Clip]

Lets try and make this perfectly clear to those in the cheap seats who may not have a grasp of how simple this is.

Carry your railcard - its a pretty simple thing to do when you want to travel on a railcard discounted ticket.

Yes some guards will excess it up but really they shouldnt - railcard fraud is rife on the railways and if we just let everyone know that should you get caught you can just pay a few quid to the next level up then this fraud would go through the roff. Yes it does catch innocent passengers who have made a simple mistake but the T&Cs are pretty clear when you purchase your railcard and ignorance is no excuse.

I still dont get why this thread is still having people trying to work out ways of trying to make a situation more costly and difficult and even one poster trying to claim that its a simple ruse to get the TOC more money.

It truly amazes me sometimes.

 

[Darandio]

The excuses being thought up in this thread are breathtaking. The need to shirk all responsibility these days and pass it on to someone else is obviously getting worse.

Because not everyone is a rail enthusiast who carries around a copy of the NRCoC and their railcard at all times.

You sign up for a railcard, you agree to carry your railcard to accompany any tickets valid with it. If you are not willing to carry a railcard around, don't bother signing up for, or use one. Very simple.

Wallets aren't infinitely big

Hilarious. Thanks for that.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I wouldn't go into Starbucks, tell them I have a loyalty card at home which would give me a free coffee, so can I have it now even though I've forgotten it, so why should something similar work on the railways?

You've shown the loyalty card at point of sale and collected your coffee. You don't expect to be challenged to produce the loyalty card as a condition of consuming the coffee. Similarly if you go to a ticket office to purchase a discounted ticket, you could be expected to demonstrate your entitlement to it.

The coffee shop analogy is that you are sold coffee at a discounted price without having to prove your entitlement to it. It's only when you drink the coffee that you might be challenged and if you couldn't produce the discount card be told that you had stolen the coffee.

 

[bb21]

You've shown the loyalty card at point of sale and collected your coffee. You don't expect to be challenged to produce the loyalty card as a condition of consuming the coffee. Similarly if you go to a ticket office to purchase a discounted ticket, you could be expected to demonstrate your entitlement to it.

The coffee shop analogy is that you are sold coffee at a discounted price without having to prove your entitlement to it. It's only when you drink the coffee that you might be challenged and if you couldn't produce the discount card be told that you had stolen the coffee.

With this loyalty card, you can purchase coffee at a discounted price for whoever you like. There is no condition imposed on any aspect of consumption.

With a Railcard, the discounted fare can only be used by whoever's name is on it. Conditions are attached to its usage.

Completely difference situations. Stop comparing apples with oranges.

 

[b0b]

have your railcard (discount card) with you and get the discount it gives you! I wouldn't go into Starbucks, tell them I have a loyalty card at home which would give me a free coffee, so can I have it now even though I've forgotten it

Where I've forgotten my loyalty card, they're very happy to look up the membership and give the discount using just a phone number. I cant think I've been challenged for an ID, as long as I can quote the matching name.

We seem to be missing the other side of this argument, people are getting discounted tickets that they are not entitled to, knowing they probably wont be caught, or will try and get discretion shown.

Shouldn't we throw some minimal tech at that problem and at the same time help the genuine customer that has made a mistake. It would seem like a win win! It must be cheaper and easier to occasionally zing an absent minded honest customer with a heavy fare rather than attack fraud - after all the honest customer is more likely to pay!

 

[Class377]

No, because simply it's easier and cheaper for a passenger to simply remember a card that can fit into a wallet anyway than to invest money to solve passengers getting it wrong.

 

[alastair]

Lets try and make this perfectly clear to those in the cheap seats who may not have a grasp of how simple this is.

Carry your railcard - its a pretty simple thing to do when you want to travel on a railcard discounted ticket.

Yes some guards will excess it up but really they shouldnt - railcard fraud is rife on the railways and if we just let everyone know that should you get caught you can just pay a few quid to the next level up then this fraud would go through the roff. Yes it does catch innocent passengers who have made a simple mistake but the T&Cs are pretty clear when you purchase your railcard and ignorance is no excuse.

I still dont get why this thread is still having people trying to work out ways of trying to make a situation more costly and difficult and even one poster trying to claim that its a simple ruse to get the TOC more money.

It truly amazes me sometimes.

Just curious,what is your source for your statement "railcard fraud is rife on the railways"? Is that really the case? For that to be true it would mean say 25/30% of passengers were involved,I have to say I find that impossible to believe.

I am not saying its not a problem but it should not be over-exaggerated.

One of the main things that would improve enforcement would be if staff were much more insistent in seeing railcards at ticket checks. In dozens of trips over many years mainly on SWT,FGW and Southern I have been asked for my Network card on only 2 occasions.....

 

[Darandio]

For that to be true it would mean say 25/30% of passengers were involved,I have to say I find that impossible to believe.

I've no idea where 25-30% comes from in relation to the word 'rife'?

Gonorrhea is a common STD, some people would say it's presence these days is 'rife' but it doesn't mean 25-30% of people who partake in unprotected sex have it!

 

[alastair]

I've no idea where 25-30% comes from in relation to the word 'rife'?

Gonorrhea is a common STD, some people would say it's presence these days is 'rife' but it doesn't mean 25-30% of people who partake in unprotected sex have it!

Define Rife at Dictionary.com. rife. rife. of common or frequent occurrence; prevalent; in widespread existence, activity, or use:

Well that was my understanding of the word "rife". For something to be described as "prevalent and widespread" then I do not think that 25/30% is an unreasonable estimate.

 

[34D]

The thing that I really do think is ridiculous is the process of adding a railcard to ones oyster card.

I didn't know until reading on here that one had to continue to carry the railcard - fortunately not relevant to me - but that really is a case where the railcard has been validated at the point it was added to the oyster.

 

[hassaanhc]

The thing that I really do think is ridiculous is the process of adding a railcard to ones oyster card.

I didn't know until reading on here that one had to continue to carry the railcard - fortunately not relevant to me - but that really is a case where the railcard has been validated at the point it was added to the oyster.

That would probably be because you could add the railcard discount for someone else and transfer the Oyster card I've never had my railcard checked with oyster.

 

[bb21]

Where I've forgotten my loyalty card, they're very happy to look up the membership and give the discount using just a phone number. I cant think I've been challenged for an ID, as long as I can quote the matching name.

Plenty of places operate paper-based loyalty card schemes. Pumpkin/Upper Crust are the first ones that pop into my head. Don't have your card? Tough.

Again can someone tell me why we need to throw money at solving a problem that does not affect the overwhelming majority of passengers?

 

[Clip]

Just curious,what is your source for your statement "railcard fraud is rife on the railways"? Is that really the case? For that to be true it would mean say 25/30% of passengers were involved,I have to say I find that impossible to believe.

I am not saying its not a problem but it should not be over-exaggerated.

One of the main things that would improve enforcement would be if staff were much more insistent in seeing railcards at ticket checks. In dozens of trips over many years mainly on SWT,FGW and Southern I have been asked for my Network card on only 2 occasions.....

Well I can only go on what I know and given the amount of PFs for not having a railcard and even the tickets bought again because they do not have it with them in my small part of the country with both the TOCs I have worked for leads me to say that yes, it is rife. More rife on a weekend funnily enough.

 

[reb0118]

TMs can rarely tell if a ticket was from an office or a machine!

Most guards worth their salt will know if a ticket comes from an office, TVM, avantix, or indeed any other TIS (Ticket Issuing System).

........ - railcard fraud is rife on the railways......

I will not comment about the meaning of "rife" but I average about three to four passengers a shift that can not produce a valid railcard.

Gonorrhea is a common STD, some people would say it's [sic] presence these days is 'rife' but it doesn't mean 25-30% of people who partake in unprotected sex have it!

I bloody hope not!