Forgotten Railcard

[158801]

We know that probably thousands of people accross the rail network forget their railcard every day. This, no doubt, is something that has been discussed on this forum lots and lots of times.

However, it seems that some people are becoming technologically clever about it.

Some will show a photocopy. Others will have taken a picture of it with their smart-phone.

So, my question is this.

The rules state that the railcard must be carried with you when you are travelling. Is a "ticket examiner" being petty by not accepting a photocopy or a photo from your smart phone?

 

[Mike395]

The rules state that the railcard must be carried with you when you are travelling. Is a "ticket examiner" being petty by not accepting a photocopy or a photo from your smart phone?

In my view, no. There is no way to tell whether either of those is genuine - and whilst I disagree with certain other poorly advertised restrictions on the railway, this is one of the most obvious and well documented.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Copies can be manipulated, so no, they are not being petty (or 'Jobsworths').

 

[142094]

I forgot mine once and had to pay up - and I'd expect others to have to follow suit. If passengers sign up to terms and conditions then they should abide by them.

One thing is for certain - after that day I've never forgotten my railcard again.

 

[Yew]

I like xc's policy where you can get a refund If you present your railcard in 30 days.

It's a maybe something will be implemented if avantix ever gets replaced?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can get a refund (minus and admin fee) on the discounted fare with any TOC if you pay for the undiscounted fare.

 

[swt_passenger]

I like xc's policy where you can get a refund If you present your railcard in 30 days.

But what about railcards that don't need photocards?

I have a Network Card. I could easily lend it to anyone - so should I still reasonably expect to get the discount myself if I 'forget it' while on a simultaneous journey?

 

[Bungle73]

We know that probably thousands of people accross the rail network forget their railcard every day. This, no doubt, is something that has been discussed on this forum lots and lots of times.

However, it seems that some people are becoming technologically clever about it.

Some will show a photocopy. Others will have taken a picture of it with their smart-phone.

So, my question is this.

The rules state that the railcard must be carried with you when you are travelling. Is a "ticket examiner" being petty by not accepting a photocopy or a photo from your smart phone?

So they've "forgotten" to bring their railcard, but somehow "remembered" to bring a photocopy or picture of it (for what reason would they have these anyway)? Hmmm.......:-?

 

[wintonian]

So you remember to take and bring with you a photocopy but not the atual railcard.

Hmm.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

 

[trainophile]

But what about railcards that don't need photocards?

I have a Network Card. I could easily lend it to anyone - so should I still reasonably expect to get the discount myself if I 'forget it' while on a simultaneous journey?

I'm about to get a senior railcard and was surprised to learn that these do not include an ID photograph. Surely this is open to abuse. If you look the right sort of age and gender you could borrow anybody's, couldn't you? Not that I would, but I bet it happens, unless someone can tell me how it is not possible.

 

[island]

No different from Family and Friends Railcards, Network Railcards, Gold Record Cards, and some of the regional railcards.

 

[All Line Rover]

Regarding forgotten Railcard's, I am comfortable with the fact that people must have their Railcard with them to use a Railcard-discounted ticket, but I am not happy with the fact that when people lose or forget their Railcard, their ticket is now "worthless" and they must buy a new one at full price. People should be allowed to pay an excess for the equivalent non-discounted ticket (perhaps at the discretion of the guard).

 

[AlterEgo]

Regarding forgotten Railcard's, I am comfortable with the fact that people must have their Railcard with them to use a Railcard-discounted ticket, but I am not happy with the fact that when people lose or forget their Railcard, their ticket is now "worthless" and they must buy a new one at full price. People should be allowed to pay an excess for the equivalent non-discounted ticket (perhaps at the discretion of the guard).

So what would be the disincentive for someone who holds no Railcard - who would then buy a Railcard discounted ticket every single time they travelled, and pay the excess one in every four or five times? (Only when challenged!)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's not worthless as such (you can claim a refund on it if it is not an Advance), the main difference between the refund and the excess is the admin fee (which could be £10), If you lose your railcard then if you have the receipt you can get a replacement for £5 (assuming you have not already had it replaced) at virtually any manned station.

I think you have to bear in mind this is as much a deterrent to fare evaders as it is a penalty for the genuine people.

 

[All Line Rover]

So what would be the disincentive for someone who holds no Railcard - who would then buy a Railcard discounted ticket every single time they travelled, and pay the excess one in every four or five times? (Only when challenged!)

That's why I say it would be best done at the discretion of the guard. If someone is spotted doing this multiple times, then the alarm bells should start ringing!

I find it unfair that a family of 2 Adults and 2 Child travelling from, say, Manchester to London on the cheapest Family-railcard-discounted Advance ticket available (£20.40), who find out after boarding the train that they have forgotten or lost their Railcard, must now buy a set of brand new Anytime tickets at £444! hock: They should be allowed to pay the difference of £15.60 between their ticket and the equivalent non-discounted ticket (£36).

(Obviously, perhaps guards would use their discretion less often on routes where tickets cost less - e.g. Milton Keynes to London. If someone who looks like a 30-year old boards a train with a Railcard-discounted Off-Peak Day Single (about £9) and claims to have forgotten their 16-25 Railcard, then I doubt the guard would use his/her discretion. But I do think the penalty in the original example (a staggering £423.60) is overly harsh - especially if it's a family going on holiday!)

 

[SS4]

That's why I say it would be best done at the discretion of the guard. If someone is spotted doing this multiple times, then the alarm bells should start ringing!

I find it unfair that a family of 2 Adults and 2 Child travelling from, say, Manchester to London on the cheapest Family-railcard-discounted Advance ticket available (£20.40), who find out after boarding the train that they have forgotten or lost their Railcard, must now buy a set of brand new Anytime tickets at £444! hock: They should be allowed to pay the difference of £15.60 between their ticket and the equivalent non-discounted ticket (£36).

Or excess to the fare they would have paid immediately before boarding. I cannot begin to think how much negligence it would require to not have the railcard given the penalties.

I really don't see the problem; myself, along with many other people I know with railcards, keep the railcard with the tickets so you don't have one without the other. It's clearly stated that you will be treated as boarding without a ticket.

Seems like a case of people wanting the rights but not the responsibilites again

 

[All Line Rover]

Or excess to the fare they would have paid immediately before boarding. I cannot begin to think how much negligence it would require to not have the railcard given the penalties.

I really don't see the problem; myself, along with many other people I know with railcards, keep the railcard with the tickets so you don't have one without the other. It's clearly stated that you will be treated as boarding without a ticket.

Seems like a case of people wanting the rights but not the responsibilites again

Although it's never happened to ourselves, I do think it's easily done, and the penalty in this example is far too harsh. I doubt a family in that position would ever consider using the railways again!

(I use sticky tape to keep my cards in position. )

 

[SS4]

Although it's never happened to ourselves, I do think it's easily done, and the penalty in this example is far too harsh. I doubt a family in that position would ever consider using the railways again!

It is easily done but if you knew you had to pay £444 you'd make damn sure you had the railcard. Better to sacrifice the advance ticket if time is short and get an off peak ticket - it'll still be cheaper. The £444 is no doubt excessive but I believe it's meant to serve as a deterrent into not forgetting the card.

(I keep mine in the wallet I got from BHM, along with tickets as soon as they come out the TVM )

The problem I can see is people chancing it if their only penalty is an excess to what they should have paid. Y-P discounts are more likely to be trying it on, the only real thing you may get with families is getting 16 y/o to act 15

 

[Bungle73]

Raicards come in ticket wallets don't they....or at least they have done for me? So if you have the tickets you should have the railcard.

People have to make sure they have all sorts of documents on them when they travel, that can cause problems if lost or forgotten; why are railcards any different?

 

[SS4]

Raicards come in ticket wallets don't they....or at least they have done for me? So if you have the tickets you should have the railcard.

People have to make sure they have all sorts of documents on them when they travel, that can cause problems if lost or forgotten; why are railcards any different?

Station ones do, online and bank ones (such as Natwest) do not. What you get appears to vary from station to station, I've got a 3-pouch NR one from BHM and a 2 pouch Centro one from BSW

 

[142094]

Raicards come in ticket wallets don't they....or at least they have done for me? So if you have the tickets you should have the railcard.

People have to make sure they have all sorts of documents on them when they travel, that can cause problems if lost or forgotten; why are railcards any different?

Railcards normally come with one of the wallets, but what a lot of people tend to do is put the railcard in a purse/wallet (especially the 16-25 ones issued when having a student account with NatWest).

 

[Urban Gateline]

Let's go one further, in Penalty fare areas, people with a railcard discounted ticket who fail to show, on demand, their railcard, should be liable to a Penalty Fare, at the discretion of Revenue staff.

 

[SS4]

Let's go one further, in Penalty fare areas, people with a railcard discounted ticket who fail to show, on demand, their railcard, should be liable to a Penalty Fare, at the discretion of Revenue staff.

They are already aren't they?

 

[Urban Gateline]

They are already aren't they?

True, but it doesn't seem well enforced!

 

[Flamingo]

You can get a refund (minus and admin fee) on the discounted fare with any TOC if you pay for the undiscounted fare.

Wrong. FGW doesn't, for one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Railcard discounted tickets are probably the most abused form of discount on the railways. A. How can the guard / revenue inspector tell the genuine from the chancer?
B. How can the person in Customer Services tell that the photocopy of the railcard in front of them is belonging to the person who was travelling and is not their mates?

If anyone can give an answer to either of these questions, then crack on.

Otherwise, the T&C are no railcard, new ticket. If people don't want to take the risk of having to buy new tickets, then either make damn sure they have the railcard with the, or don't buy those type of tickets in the first place.

 

[John @ home]

You can get a refund (minus and admin fee) on the discounted fare with any TOC if you pay for the undiscounted fare.

Wrong. FGW doesn't, for one.

Are you sure, Flamingo?

A person buys a £25.75 Super Off-Peak Single (SSS) London - Cardiff with a Y-P Railcard. On the train, they discover they have forgotten their Railcard and are charged a £99.50 Anytime Single London - Cardiff in addition.

Are you really saying that FGW policy in these circumstances is to refuse a claim for a refund of £15.75 (£25.75 for the unused refundable SSS minus £10 admin fee)?

It seems to me that the right to a refund in these circumstances is plain from NRCoC 26 and that a refusal to pay could be pursued in Court.

 

[Flamingo]

Are you sure, Flamingo?

A person buys a £25.75 Super Off-Peak Single (SSS) London - Cardiff with a Y-P Railcard. On the train, they discover they have forgotten their Railcard and are charged a £99.50 Anytime Single London - Cardiff in addition.

Are you really saying that FGW policy in these circumstances is to refuse a claim for a refund of £15.75 (£25.75 for the unused refundable SSS minus £10 admin fee)?

It seems to me that the right to a refund in these circumstances is plain from NRCoC 26 and that a refusal to pay could be pursued in Court.

We are told to tell passengers that they are not entitled to a refund.

NRCoC is that passengers without a railcard should be treated as if they are travelling without any ticket. I have had passengers in these circumstances who refused to purchase a new ticket or accept a UPFN end up in court, and convicted of fraudulent travel.

If you wish to pursue it in court, then crack on.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm 99% certain the FRPP says that you would be entitled to a refund. I can't check 'til I'm in work next, but I don't remember that changing. I can understand a TOC asking you not to mention it (they want to keep the money) and that they are not entitled to a refund on the full fare.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That's why I say it would be best done at the discretion of the guard. If someone is spotted doing this multiple times, then the alarm bells should start ringing!

And how on earth do you propose that Guards, who work many trains and see hundreds of faces a day, attempt to remember whether somebody was trying it on last week, month or whatever? Somebody can travel the same route every day, but depending on what time trains he catches, he may not see the same Guard for weeks on end. No, I'm sorry, this is a completely stupid theory. I have no objection to it being a new ticket at the cheapest fare valid for immediate travel - but it needs to be a new ticket each time to deter the (many many) people who try it on and hope to get away with it.

 

[All Line Rover]

The problem I can see is people chancing it if their only penalty is an excess to what they should have paid. Y-P discounts are more likely to be trying it on, the only real thing you may get with families is getting 16 y/o to act 15

16 year old's can travel on Family-Railcard-discounted Child tickets if the Railcard was bought before they turned 16. A good policy there!