Former DOO operation?

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NSEFAN

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Travelling through St Margarets yesterday, I noticed an disused set of DOO monitors opposite the up slow platform. I guess that these were installed by Network Southeast in the 1990s, but does this mean that South West Trains reinstated operational guards?

Are there are any other routes where this has happened? It's the first case I've heard of.
 
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Galvanize

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Travelling through St Margarets yesterday, I noticed an disused set of DOO monitors opposite the up slow platform. I guess that these were installed by Network Southeast in the 1990s, but does this mean that South West Trains reinstated operational guards?

Are there are any other routes where this has happened? It's the first case I've heard of.
Quite a few stations on the SWT network were fitted out with DOO monitors and mirrors in the early 1990s, but due to union issues, the services retained their guards, which remains true today!
 

91101

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In a similar vein what happened with DOO on the St Albans Abbey Branch? There are mirrors all along there?
 

Urban Gateline

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Some of these monitors are conveniently placed on the platforms so that Guards can use them for dispatch aid when there's no dispatch staff to help, like Clapham Junction platform 7 or Raynes park platform 1.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Some of these monitors are conveniently placed on the platforms so that Guards can use them for dispatch aid when there's no dispatch staff to help, like Clapham Junction platform 7 or Raynes park platform 1.
SWT have recently been installing CCTV cameras and monitors to aid Guard dispatch, for example at Farnham due to the curve..
 

Urban Gateline

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SWT have recently been installing CCTV cameras and monitors to aid Guard dispatch, for example at Farnham due to the curve..
Yes I've seen the ones in Farnham, they seem to have been there a while now. Aldershot really needs some towards the london end of the platform (1) as it's very curved and difficult to see the rest of the train from there even from the back of the platform!
 

BestWestern

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Fratton also has recently installed CCTV monitors to aid Guard dispatch, which I believe has allowed SWT to withdraw station dispatch staff even for 10 and 12 car trains.
 

ess

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what is the normal argument used to maintain a guard when some routes have had DOO for years. it must be more specific than 'safety'
how did fcc and fgw routes get it through?
 

Urban Gateline

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what is the normal argument used to maintain a guard when some routes have had DOO for years. it must be more specific than 'safety'
how did fcc and fgw routes get it through?
Well, First group seems to be VERY insistent on keeping costs low, regardless of the end result of that!

SWT for example, have it written into the current franchise agreement, that there is a requirement to have a Guard on ALL their public services, therefore they cannot suddenly change this until the Franchise runs out in 2017.

Safety of course IS the number one reason, as in an emergency situation, 2 members of staff (both Safety Critical) will always be safer than one to handle it.

Customer service is another reason, I think passengers like having someone present that they can talk to and direct questions to, especially during times of disruption.

The Guards that collect revenue also pay for themselves in a way, without them, Ticket Examiners would be needed, although these are less costly than a Guard, they are of course not safety critical staff and for the small difference in pay it is well worth keeping the Guard onboard!

Btw I'm not a Guard, just barrier staff, but I see many reasons against going DOO.
 

PinzaC55

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Well, First group seems to be VERY insistent on keeping costs low, regardless of the end result of that!

SWT for example, have it written into the current franchise agreement, that there is a requirement to have a Guard on ALL their public services, therefore they cannot suddenly change this until the Franchise runs out in 2017.

Safety of course IS the number one reason, as in an emergency situation, 2 members of staff (both Safety Critical) will always be safer than one to handle it.

Customer service is another reason, I think passengers like having someone present that they can talk to and direct questions to, especially during times of disruption.

The Guards that collect revenue also pay for themselves in a way, without them, Ticket Examiners would be needed, although these are less costly than a Guard, they are of course not safety critical staff and for the small difference in pay it is well worth keeping the Guard onboard!

Btw I'm not a Guard, just barrier staff, but I see many reasons against going DOO.
When Kings Cross suburban services went DOO many of the "horror stories" were hushed up, such as the driver who opened the doors on the wrong side at Harringay. Luckily for him no punters were leaning against them and no HST's were passing at 100 MPH on the adjacent fast line.
 

ess

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i'm not in favour of DOO but surely a guard at some point has mistakenly opened the doors on the wrong side due to human error. there's also a platform at finsbury park where it wouldn't matter
 

PinzaC55

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i'm not in favour of DOO but surely a guard at some point has mistakenly opened the doors on the wrong side due to human error. there's also a platform at finsbury park where it wouldn't matter
It wasn't impossible for the guard to open the doors on the wrong side but it was unlikely since that was his primary duty. The driver didn't leave his seat so if the doors were on the opposite side it was easy for him to forget.
The drivers were happy to get their DOO money but in reality it was a huge amount more work for a relatively small pay increase.
I sometimes opened the doors on both sides at Finsbury Park in the rush hour as it made the train easier to load and unload.
 

BestWestern

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There is a far greater level of risk involved with DOO operation than there will ever be with a Guard on board. Having the Guard in control of the train doors is a far safer option than leaving it with the Driver who is shut away in the cab and very much remote from what is going on outside. Many current of former DOO Drivers will have more than a few tales of doors being released on coming to a stop at a red signal, purely through force of habit, or occasions when Drivers have stopped short with long trains and released with the back end off the platform, or opened them on the wrong side, and so on. Of course, errors happen with Guards in charge too, but there is a much better chance of incidents being avoided.

As for general safety responsibilities, the Driver is the most likely person to be killed in a serious train accident, and however good the upcoming signalling and communication systems might be, it is common sense to have a second person on a train who is capable of dealing with things if the worst happens. There are very few DOO Drivers in my experience who don't prefer having a Guard on board.
 

PinzaC55

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Incidentally, it is ancient history now but when DOO was introduced on trains from Charing Cross / Cannon Street it was the rule that where the stock was slam door (mainly EPB's) and ran through an unstaffed station then all external doors had to be locked.Since St. Johns was unstaffed this basically meant ALL trains. On a 10 coach EPB formation this was a big job, and unfortunately most Guards chose to ignore it and the management were happy for this to happen. If they'd have stuck to the rule we could have ground the network to a halt. Many times I locked the doors for the hell of it and management couldn't say a word.
 

jon0844

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Never had a driver release the doors when stopped at a signal, but I have had a FCC driver stop short at New Southgate. When I reported it to FCC management, they denied it happened and effectively accused me of making it up. Wish I'd taken a photo or even filmed the passenger who jumped down (note, he didn't fall or anything - he voluntarily did so) and walked up the ramp as he wanted to alight there.

I do expect a guard wouldn't have made such a mistake, although it turned out that Network Rail had apparently put the 8-car stop board in the wrong place on the platform. How the hell can that happen?!
 

PinzaC55

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When I reported it to FCC management, they denied it happened and effectively accused me of making it up.
So nothing has changed? In BR days these incidents were hushed up....I'd have thought these days they would be the subject of an inquiry.
 

AlexS

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Incidentally, it is ancient history now but when DOO was introduced on trains from Charing Cross / Cannon Street it was the rule that where the stock was slam door (mainly EPB's) and ran through an unstaffed station then all external doors had to be locked.Since St. Johns was unstaffed this basically meant ALL trains. On a 10 coach EPB formation this was a big job, and unfortunately most Guards chose to ignore it and the management were happy for this to happen. If they'd have stuck to the rule we could have ground the network to a halt. Many times I locked the doors for the hell of it and management couldn't say a word.
What a ridiculous rule. What was the contingency plan for if your compartmentalised, some cases non corridor stock caught fire while all the external doors were locked?
 

PinzaC55

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What a ridiculous rule. What was the contingency plan for if your compartmentalised, some cases non corridor stock caught fire while all the external doors were locked?
The reason for the rule was that the empty train might potentially be stopped at a signal in an unstaffed station with the possibilty that passengers might board it (this happened) in which case the train might have no guard, be carrying passengers and the driver would be unaware that passengers were on board. If the EPB was empty and caught fire it wouldn't be as big a deal as if there were passengers, since the EPB's were life expired anyway. As I said the rule was largely ignored and BR were just lucky they had no problems - or at least no problems I heard of! However as I said earlier most incidents were hushed up.
 
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