Former IRA commander to meet Queen Elizabeth II

[Arglwydd Golau]

I stand by the principle of self-determination. If a healthy majority of NI residents wished to cede from the Union and join the Republic of Ireland I'd have no issue with that taking place (assuming that RoI was willing to ensure the safety of any Unionist/Protestant's that remained in the former NI). Certainly as far as I'm concerned just handing back NI is not an option as that'll almost certainly just result in a renewed round of violence as Matt put it 'The Troubles Mk2'.

That being said does anyone have any figures on the support in NI for leaving the Union and joining the RoI?

Um....problem is, I think, that looking back in history, self-determination should have been Ireland as a whole, NI was artificially created (and doesn't even include all the counties in the province of Ulster). Many historians have argued that were it not for the 1st WW, Ireland (the island of) would have gained independence, NI was created with an in-built Unionist majority.

 

[ainsworth74]

Um....problem is, I think, that looking back in history, self-determination should have been Ireland as a whole, NI was artificially created (and doesn't even include all the counties in the province of Ulster). Many historians have argued that were it not for the 1st WW, Ireland (the island of) would have gained independence, NI was created with an in-built Unionist majority.

So would you therefore suggest that we ignore the wishes of the people that actually live there?

 

[yorkie]

Um....problem is, I think, that looking back in history, self-determination should have been Ireland as a whole

On what basis - that it's an island? That would make mainland Europe interesting!

NI was artificially created (and doesn't even include all the counties in the province of Ulster). Many historians have argued that were it not for the 1st WW, Ireland (the island of) would have gained independence, NI was created with an in-built Unionist majority.

But aren't almost all territories artificially created? e.g. Liechtenstein, would you say that "should" be part of Germany? Presumably if some people in Germany think so, then that would 'over-rule' the wishes of the people who live there, by your logic?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

On what basis - that it's an island? That would make mainland Europe interesting!


But aren't almost all territories artificially created? e.g. Liechtenstein, would you say that "should" be part of Germany? Presumably if some people in Germany think so, then that would 'over-rule' the wishes of the people who live there, by your logic?

I was pointing out that, until partition Ireland had always been governed as a single entity...'fraid I don't know enough about Liechtenstein.
The UK is responsible for many of the world's current border disputes, as an admission by David Cameron last year accepted (when commenting on the Kashmiri dispute). The expansion of Empire, and the hasty retreat from Empire, with hurriedly drawn-up boundaries have caused numerous problems. The partition of Ireland may have led to a short term solution but it certainly stored up longer-term problems.
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So would you therefore suggest that we ignore the wishes of the people that actually live there?

I was trying to say that it is more complicated than that, if the people of both ROI & NI were allowed to vote together, the majority view on the whole island would be for unification, I would imagine. They are all Irish after all and proud to be so. Partition was a quick-fix solution at the time that has led to the problems that we have witnessed over decades.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

A problem which is now easing again. Further, it should be just NI voting, if the Republic get to vote then the rest of the UK should too!

 

[WestCoast]

But aren't almost all territories artificially created? e.g. Liechtenstein, would you say that "should" be part of Germany? Presumably if some people in Germany think so, then that would 'over-rule' the wishes of the people who live there, by your logic?

Liechtenstein was a fief of the Holy Roman Empire, which was dissolved in 1806. It then gained "independence" from the German Confederation in 1866 and became a vassal of the Austro-Hungarian Empire up to the end of WW1. These Empires devolved a huge amount of autonomy to these 'provinces', a traditional which has carried on in some Central European states to this day.

It lies between modern Austria and Switzerland, but has been closely 'aligned' (for want of a better term) to Switzerland since the Second World War, firstly sharing a position of neutrality and then an economic union.

A better parallel would be the Spanish and Argentinian claims over Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands respectively. The claims are mainly based on geographical location and ignore the rights of self-determination for the people who live there.

In the case of the Falklands, Argentina argues that the UK 'implanted' a population who would be loyal to Crown, aside from the slight hypocrisy on their behalf, so what? I say we're all humans from Planet Earth and can't turn back time, so the majority should be able to choose a legitimate Government to govern them.