Formula 1

[JohnMcL7]

There is a helicopter shot of the crash that shows Grosjean was in the fire for at least 20 seconds! It is incredible that he was able to survive the impact and was conscious let alone walk away from a fire like that. The Halo clearly saved his life in the impact but to be able to extricate himself from the fire is amazing. The full technical investigation report will make interesting reading.

The medical car staff were straight into the fire and the marshals rushed straight in to try and tackle the fire. I thought the first person attacking the fire from the circuit side was the medical car driver. It is actually a marshal who ran across the track carrying an extinguisher.

You also have to wonder how much luck plays a part. That surely cant be measured but if you are unlucky all of the great technology and brave actions of the safety team wont help.

This is an awful accident and one that needs to be looked at very carefully with lessons absorbed to improve things again.

EDIT - Pietro Fittipaldi (Grandson of Emerson Fittipaldi) will cover for Grosjean at the Sakhir Grand Prix

A lot of this crash was bad luck because the car hit the barrier at an unusual angle going head on rather than being deflected. I expect they'll improve this barrier after this but the tracks are designed with certain expectations of where the cars will come off and at what angles and this isn't the first time there's been an accident where a vehicle has come off an unusual way. It's amazing Grosjean was ok and it seems almost unbelievable with such a hard impact he could get out of the car so quickly

What isn't lucky is the medical car response which is something Sid Watkins is responsible for since he knew seconds could make all the difference in an accident so he wanted a fast medical car at the back of the grid to ensure medical staff could be at the accident as quickly as possible. If you've not read it Sid Waktins' book is a great read not just for the insight into the F1 safety improvements but because he was quite a character:

Life at the Limit: Triumph and Tragedy in Formula One: Amazon.co.uk: Watkins, Sid, Lauda, Niki: 9780333657744: Books

Buy Life at the Limit: Triumph and Tragedy in Formula One First Edition by Watkins, Sid, Lauda, Niki (ISBN: 9780333657744) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

With regards to the halo design I've been wondering what would have happened if it had been an LMP car that had been in that impact with its sealed cockpit but I guess it probably wouldn't have been able to go through the barrier the same way and would have ended up still on the race track side.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

With regards to the halo design I've been wondering what would have happened if it had been an LMP car that had been in that impact with its sealed cockpit but I guess it probably wouldn't have been able to go through the barrier the same way and would have ended up still on the race track side.

What is LMP please?

Just wondering also - wouldn't it be a bit of a moot point if a car goes through the barrier or not if it splits in half? ( Which until yesterday I wouldn't have thought was possible given that the chassis design is a monocoque structure ).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Indeed like a scene from the old days, i expect there will be a lot questions to answer.

Not sure thees any questions to answer about the safety regulations that have built a vehicle that can withstand that sort of crash impact and the driver walks away virtually unscathed. Much to be celebrated i would suggest.

My only concern was the marshalls looked slow to react (guess they are locals) and it was the medical car and crew that really helped.

 

[DarloRich]

What is LMP please?

LMP = Le Mans Prototype (Essentially a non road car derived Le Mans Car)

As an idea this is the Toyota that won Le Mans this year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid

What isn't lucky is the medical car response which is something Sid Watkins is responsible for since he knew seconds could make all the difference in an accident so he wanted a fast medical car at the back of the grid to ensure medical staff could be at the accident as quickly as possible

Spot on. You see the Car of Safety and the Medical Car at the Grand Prix and you think they have a great job flying all over the world messing about with F1. Then they have to pull someone out of a massive fire......................

For people who are interested there is a good article here about the medical car. : https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...fastest-ambulance.50sdlN2XmoK6g8k0ecGGMO.html

F1: And when it comes to driving, Van der Merwe is more than a safe pair of hands - in fact he might well have made it to the F1 grid himself if his career had taken a few different twists and turns. A former Formula Ford Festival and British Formula 3 champion, the South African can count a stint as BAR-Honda’s test driver amongst his racing accomplishments.

and

The Medical Car carries the FIA medical rescue co-ordinator, Dr Ian Roberts, and frequently a local doctor specialising in emergency medicine to the scene of an accident. Extraction teams are positioned around the circuit to deal with these situations, under the supervision of Dr Roberts, who is variously a consultant in anaesthesia and intensive care, a veteran HEMS (Helicopter Emergency Medical Service) specialist and the former chief medical officer of the British Grand Prix.

 

[najaB]

They introduced the halo as part of the reaction to Jules's death and then said it wouldn't have saved him, which makes the entire thing seem pointless.

No, people who are complaining are missing the point. Jules' accident showed that drivers were at risk of severe head injury so they introduced measures to reduce that risk. The intention wasn't to bring him back from the dead, nor was it to stop him from being killed. His specific accident was almost impossible to protect against.

 

[Domh245]

What is LMP please?

Just wondering also - wouldn't it be a bit of a moot point if a car goes through the barrier or not if it splits in half? ( Which until yesterday I wouldn't have thought was possible given that the chassis design is a monocoque structure ).

Le Mans Prototype - in essence the top tier of sportscar racing. As for if they would spear through the barrier in the same way, my gut feeling is no - with the wider, higher and flatter front they wouldn't have pierced it in the same way the nose of an F1 car would

The "chassis" is monocoque, but the engine is a stressed member and not part of the chassis. The F1 car essentially consists of (front to rear) Nose/crash structure - tub - engine - gearbox; the crash structure did it's job and exploded, the tub went through the barrier, and the last 2 bits were what stayed racetrack side. It's been this way since the 60s - if you look at a Lotus 49 for example you can see the tub and engine (along with gearbox and rear suspension) are separate items

The engine is mounted to the tub with 6 bolts - it's inevitably going to be a weak point in the car and indeed some other large crashes have seen it fail there or at the gearbox mount. In some respects it's quite handy for the failure to happen there as there's no longer 300kg of power unit and rear end adding momentum to the crash, the only concern is the fuel but even here the main tank appeared to hold up well through the initial impact

My only concern was the marshalls looked slow to react (guess they are locals) and it was the medical car and crew that really helped.

Not at all. They're local marshals but are highly regarded and up there alongside the British contingent. They marshal many F1 events including Singapore and Abu Dhabi IIRC

Consider that anyone immediately next to the crash site will have in self preservation tried to get away from a car hurtling towards them at over 200ks before then heading back to the accident site - The BMMC remind members it's self-preservation first, assistance second. The first fire marshal on site has crossed the track to do so, and having sprinted 100m or so with an extinguisher and clad in fireproof suit, it's understandable if he doesn't get the pin out first time - in the adrenaline of the situation Dr Roberts is trying to encourage him on, not pull it for him Van Der Merwe only arrives with his extinguisher once Grosjean is already over the fence and being dragged to the medical car. The poor chap behind the barrier having just had a fireball and bits of car launched at him then has to try and tackle a raging inferno from further away than ideal (the fuels and liquids from the car draining away from the armco, on fire) with a wide angle extinguisher meant for squirting on warm brakes and under engine covers on cars that have just pulled over.

It was a brilliant team effort by all those on the scene, and I don't think you'd have seen a much better response from any other marshals worldwide. That said, the incident at the end of the race with a marshal running across a live track in front of Norris was disappointing to see (albeit understandable given what had gone on earlier)

 

[37424]

Not sure thees any questions to answer about the safety regulations that have built a vehicle that can withstand that sort of crash impact and the driver walks away virtually unscathed. Much to be celebrated i would suggest.

My only concern was the marshalls looked slow to react (guess they are locals) and it was the medical car and crew that really helped.

While there is much to celebrate about the safety of modern F1 cars, there are clearly things to look at as Ross Brawn said in his Sky interview such as the way the barrier split and the fact the car went up in flames in a way we havent really seen much since old days of F1.

Obviously its impossible to eliminate all risks in a sport such as F1 but it doesn't mean you carn't learn things and improve, clearly the Halo played a major part in preventing a much worse result and thats only a recent development.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just wondering also - wouldn't it be a bit of a moot point if a car goes through the barrier or not if it splits in half?

I think it’s quite likely that it split in half because the front went through the barrier, and effectively wedged itself there, thereby creating a fulcrum for a turning force of the back half of the car.


As an aside, if you’d told me at lunchtime yesterday that there would be a serious injury to a sportsman from one of a 220kph F1 crash penetrating Armco with the driver in a fire for 20 seconds, or a clash of heads in the Premier league, I know which one I’d have said would result in the worst injuries, and it wouldn’t be Raul Jimenez.

 

[Non Multi]

Just wondering also - wouldn't it be a bit of a moot point if a car goes through the barrier or not if it splits in half? ( Which until yesterday I wouldn't have thought was possible given that the chassis design is a monocoque structure ).

It's actually a design feature of the carbon fibre monocoque. Have a look at John Watson's 1981 Monza crash in the McLaren MP4/1; the first of the carbon monocoque cars. It split in much the same way.

The main flaw of the contemporary single seater is that it's only able to take the impact energy from a single huge accident, not 2+.

 

[KashmireHawker]

BREAKING: Lewis Hamilton TESTS POSITIVE for Coronavirus and will miss this weekend’s Sakhir Grand Prix

 

[greatvoyager]

BREAKING: Lewis Hamilton TESTS POSITIVE for Coronavirus and will miss this weekend’s Sakhir Grand Prix

Who is going to replace him?

 

[birchesgreen]

Who is going to replace him?

Vandoorne or Russell? As the last two races are back to back he might not race again now till next year.

 

[Domh245]

Vandoorne would seem the most likely to replace Hamilton. He's even got form in being a sub in Bahrain!

In other news, it's also been confirmed that Nikita Mazepin will be racing for Haas next year. Expect the announcement of Mick Schumacher as their other driver to come at some point after the conclusion of the F2 season on sunday

 

[JamesT]

Vandoorne or Russell? As the last two races are back to back he might not race again now till next year.

Vandoorne seems the most likely, he’s their nominated reserve driver.
George Russell seems unlikely, would Williams want to give up their driver and then have to find a substitute themselves? What advantage would it have for Mercedes?

 

[birchesgreen]

Williams would be happy i am sure, especially if Russell did well as it would reflect well on them when he returned. It depends if Mercedes see him as their future or not, they might see this as a good opportunity to take a look at what he can do. I agree its most likely to be Vandoorne though.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Brit Callum Ilott - who is the only man realistically, which could overhaul Mick Schumacher and win the Formula 2 Championship this weekend, has MISSED OUT on 2021’s grid, through the news stated above and confirmed that publicly yesterday.

The fact the possible champion, of the 2nd tier - won’t even be in F1 next year is a serious farce!

Automatic promotion to Formula 1, to the winner and possibly Runner-Up in F2 needs to be considered ASAP - to avoid teams continuing to be, as financially motivated as they are and knowing Mazepin, is no way ready to beef it out in the big league!

 

[Domh245]

Automatic promotion to Formula 1, to the winner and possibly Runner-Up in F2 needs to be considered ASAP - to avoid teams continuing to be, as financially motivated as they are and knowing Mazepin, is no way ready to beef it out in the big league!

How do you propose this automatic promotion, because it's pretty much unworkable. The FIA (or whoever) can put a support package together for the F2 champion to help them try to find a team, but with the complication of driver affiliations and a limited number of teams even that won't necessarily help too much. No team will accept being forced to have the F2 champion drive for them for a year without compensation, and even then many teams won't accept it at all - why would Mercedes or Ferrari (for example) accept an inexperienced driver

As for Mazepin, whilst not realistically in F2 championship contention, he's certainly not unready for F1. There's been many strong performances in F2 from him this year and he's certainly going to be interesting to watch in an F1 car. He's not F1 championship winning material, but he's comfortably a 'midfield level' driver IMO

 

[GB]

Williams would be happy i am sure, especially if Russell did well as it would reflect well on them when he returned. It depends if Mercedes see him as their future or not, they might see this as a good opportunity to take a look at what he can do. I agree its most likely to be Vandoorne though.

Can't see how Russell doing well at Mercedes would reflect well on Williams...just show up what an awful car they have.

 

[Domh245]

Can't see how Russell doing well at Mercedes would reflect well on Williams...just show up what an awful car they have.

And besides, given George's seeming allergy to points it would seem likely for him to fail to score any, even in a merc!

 

[43172]

Williams have a number of reserve drivers, the only one I think that has the required points for a super license is Jack Aitken, though this is helped by changes in October that allow a driver to select the 3 highest points scoring years out of the last 4 years (including 2020). Aitken has 40 points (although at this meeting the minimum was reduced to 30 points providing they have showed outstanding driving ability), a 2nd in GP3 in 2017 and a 5th in F2 last year, each awarding 20 points. (article and relevant quote from it showed below)

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-announces-world-motor-sport-council-decisions-19

FIA Safety Commission
Appendix L – Chapter 1 “FIA International Drivers’ Licences” – Article 5 “Qualification and conditions of issue for the Super Licence” has been amended to provide an update on eligibility criteria.

In the wake of the current global situation, the window in which drivers will be allowed to score Super Licence points has been extended from three to four years. The highest number of points accumulated in any three years of a four-year period that includes 2020 will be taken into account.

Drivers who did not gather the required 40 Super Licence points due to circumstances out of their control or reasons of force majeure will have the opportunity for their case to be considered by the FIA.

Drivers must have scored a minimum of 30 points and consistently demonstrated outstanding driving ability in single-seater cars to be able to apply under this new regulation.

If Ilott wins the title, it'll be a repeat of last year when Nyck de Vries won the F2 title, but ended up in Formula E

 

[DarloRich]

Brit Callum Ilott - who is the only man realistically, which could overhaul Mick Schumacher and win the Formula 2 Championship this weekend, has MISSED OUT on 2021’s grid, through the news stated above and confirmed that publicly yesterday.

The fact the possible champion, of the 2nd tier - won’t even be in F1 next year is a serious farce!

Automatic promotion to Formula 1, to the winner and possibly Runner-Up in F2 needs to be considered ASAP - to avoid teams continuing to be, as financially motivated as they are and knowing Mazepin, is no way ready to beef it out in the big league!

How is automatic promotion going to work? Which driver gets sacked for some 17 year old kid? Are the FIA going to pay teams to take rookies? F1 is, more than ever, about coin not talent. If you have backing you will get a seat. Money talks and talent walks as Martin Brundle puts it.

Who is going to replace him?

Hulkenburg surely. He is the F1 reserve man

 

[Darandio]

My only concern was the marshalls looked slow to react (guess they are locals) and it was the medical car and crew that really helped.

That's incredibly unfair.

Some marshals were stationed right were the accident occured and were scrambling away from a fireball. Other marshals came from the other side of the track and it was one of them who used an extinguisher to push the flames back allowing one of the medical team to get close.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Mazepin is such an unlikeable person. He once punched illot in the face and he has numerous other unpleasant antics.

 

[43096]

Mazepin is such an unlikeable person. He once punched illot in the face and he has numerous other unpleasant antics.

That's probably one of the attractions for F1 hiring him. Make a change from the corporate drones we have now.

 

[D365]

They introduced the halo as part of the reaction to Jules's death and then said it wouldn't have saved him, which makes the entire thing seem pointless.

I'm pretty sure it was in development (at the very least, as a concept) since we lost Henry Surtees in 2009.

Mazepin is such an unlikeable person. He once punched illot in the face and he has numerous other unpleasant antics.

For all our sakes I hope that Ticktum doesn't end up replacing Russell once he is promoted to Mercedes. At least it will make "formula1point75" all the more spicy.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Mazepin is such an unlikeable person. He once punched illot in the face and he has numerous other unpleasant antics.

He has an effing girl's name which is wrong - then again he is Russian! I had to look him up as F1 is apparently allowing women to race very soon and I wondered whether this was an opportunity.

 

[birchesgreen]

So it is Russell

 

[D365]

So it is Russell

If it was going to be Vandoorne they would have announced immediately. I imagine the intention was always there to give Russell a shot.

Good to see Jack Aitken getting an F1 chance, I hope he gets a full time drive once Russell is promoted to Merc.

 

[birchesgreen]

Can't see how Russell doing well at Mercedes would reflect well on Williams...just show up what an awful car they have.

If he does well, especially if he gets a win, it makes him much more marketable for Williams next year.

 

[SteveM70]

Question about the halo things (I’m only an occasional watcher of F1 and haven’t followed it closely since Gilles Villeneuve died). Why is the piece anchoring the halo to the car dead centre in front of the driver? Surely it would be better to have two of them, each at say 30 degrees from straight ahead, so the driver’s forward vision isn’t impaired?