Formula 1

[gswindale]

BBC reporting that grid will be in championship order if no qualifying this afternoon (can't seem to link as it's on the live coverage of FP1)

 

[DelW]

BBC reporting that grid will be in championship order if no qualifying this afternoon (can't seem to link as it's on the live coverage of FP1)

Qualifying did take place this afternoon, Verstappen fastest but Leclerc promoted to pole by Verstappen's penalty.

I find the sprint race weekends annoying, because Channel 4 don't amend their schedule to accommodate them. When quali is on a Saturday afternoon, I can avoid hearing the outcome until Ch4 show the highlights in the early evening, meaning I can watch it "as live". With the sprint race moving "proper" quali to Friday, I'd have to basically do without using TV, radio or internet for about 30 hours to avoid hearing the outcome until Ch4 shows it tomorrow evening.

The sprint race is an unnecessary distraction anyway - for me, F1 should be about proper GPs. This constant tinkering with formats to attract those with a limited attention span seems to be a hallmark of the current administration.

 

[357]

Sky say Lewis getting a 5 second penalty is harsh... The other guy is out of the race. It's harsh on the other driver.

Great to see Oscar on the podium. It was an interesting race.

 

[Mogster]

Sky say Lewis getting a 5 second penalty is harsh... The other guy is out of the race. It's harsh on the other driver.

Great to see Oscar on the podium. It was an interesting race.

Perez’s tyres were shot, he was all over the place. In the report the stewards accepted he squeezed Hamilton onto the kerb, the kerb being wet and painted Hamilton understeered into Perez’s car and the Stewards penalised Hamilton although minimally. I struggle to see this as anything else other than a racing incident on a wet circuit. I can’t think of any other series that would have handed out a penalty for an incident like this, modern F1 really does exist in its own bubble.

 

[357]

NEW RECORD

With today's incident, Hamilton has now crashed with Red Bull drivers 6 years in a row.

2018 - Verstappen
2019 - Albon
2020 - Albon
2021 - Verstappen (×3)
2022-Verstappen
2023 - Pérez

 

[Enthusiast]

NEW RECORD

With today's incident, Hamilton has now crashed with Red Bull drivers 6 years in a row.

Or of course, contrarily, Red Bull cars have crashed with Hamilton 6 years in a row.

 

[Darandio]

Or of course, contrarily, Red Bull cars have crashed with Hamilton 6 years in a row.

Ahh. But the Red Bull drivers weren't a problem child or wore ridiculous outfits. Agendas only work one way.

 

[gswindale]

NEW RECORD

With today's incident, Hamilton has now crashed with Red Bull drivers 6 years in a row.

2018 - Verstappen
2019 - Albon
2020 - Albon
2021 - Verstappen (×3)
2022-Verstappen
2023 - Pérez

How many years in a row has a Merc driver had a collision with a Ferrari driver?

How many times did Prost, Senna or Schumacher collide with various drivers from a rival team?

 

[DelW]

NEW RECORD

With today's incident, Hamilton has now crashed with Red Bull drivers 6 years in a row.

2018 - Verstappen
2019 - Albon
2020 - Albon
2021 - Verstappen (×3)
2022-Verstappen
2023 - Pérez

For much of his early F1 career, when going into a corner alongside another car, Verstappen's mantra was "either you concede the corner to me, or we crash". He even once managed to crash out of a race he was leading, by applying that philosophy to a car a lap behind him, whose driver was trying to unlap himself. In the circumstances, it's hardly surprising that he features a lot in that list.

He has learnt a bit more sense in such matters in the last two seasons.

 

[stuart81]

How many years in a row has a Merc driver had a collision with a Ferrari driver?

How many times did Prost, Senna or Schumacher collide with various drivers from a rival team?

True but how many were racing incidents and how many were intentional?

 

[DelW]

True but how many were racing incidents and how many were intentional?

At least two Schumacher ones were intentional - one where he punted Damon Hill off the track to win a World Championship after he'd gone off track and damaged his own car; and one where he tried the same trick in similar circumstances a couple of years later against Jaques Villeneuve, but without success. I can still recall Martin Brundle's commentary along the lines of "that hasn't worked this time Michael".

 

[357]

He has learnt a bit more sense in such matters in the last two seasons.

One would hope that it coincides with his absolutely toxic father putting less pressure on him, but that's another story..... Agree that he's grown up massively more recently.

 

[DarloRich]

Guess who won...............

Thats right. Verstappen. But only by 22 seconds this week. Slacking off.

I am sure the race for first loser was BRILLIANT!

 

[stuart81]

Guess who won...............

Thats right. Verstappen. But only by 22 seconds this week. Slacking off.

I am sure the race for first loser was BRILLIANT!

40 minutes from his victory to your usual moan. Slacking off lol

 

[DarloRich]

40 minutes from his victory to your usual moan. Slacking off lol

I know. Engineers didnt set my run up correctly.

Btw - i dont mind verstappen winning the races or the title. I simply wish he had to work at it and, you know, race

 

[BJames]

Guess who won...............

Thats right. Verstappen. But only by 22 seconds this week. Slacking off.

I am sure the race for first loser was BRILLIANT!

Saw on Twitter/X/whatever that he said something along the lines of shall I push harder and we can do a pit stop practice... even he knows that this is getting tedious. Quite amusing though

Oh, but he at least he wasn't leading for the first few laps of the race I guess!

 

[357]

I'd love to see Max put in an Alpha Tauri and Yuki put in the Red Bull just to see what happens and shake things up a bit. Of course it won't happen though.

 

[stuart81]

I know. Engineers didnt set my run up correctly.

Btw - i dont mind verstappen winning the races or the title. I simply wish he had to work at it and, you know, race

I wonder if he will lose motivation, there isn't anyone at the minute that can get close to him

 

[DarloRich]

I wonder if he will lose motivation, there isn't anyone at the minute that can get close to him

Even demotivated the car is still miles quicker than the rest.

I would give Verstappen a choice: take the rest of the year off OR drive all the remaining races in my 2010 BMW diesel with 300K+ miles on the clock.

 

[357]

More useful information, worth noting that following today's race, whatever happens, Logan Sergeant will not be able to win the Drivers Championship.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At least two Schumacher ones were intentional - one where he punted Damon Hill off the track to win a World Championship after he'd gone off track and damaged his own car; and one where he tried the same trick in similar circumstances a couple of years later against Jaques Villeneuve, but without success. I can still recall Martin Brundle's commentary along the lines of "that hasn't worked this time Michael".

I remember watching those live at the time; how on Earth Schumacher did not get an instant disqualification for such blatant deliberate ramming off the track is beyond me.

 

[DelW]

I remember watching those live at the time; how on Earth Schumacher did not get an instant disqualification for such blatant deliberate ramming off the track is beyond me.

I agree, particularly for the Damon Hill incident which changed not just points but the outcome of the race and the World Championship. I never regarded that one as being legitimately Schumacher's.

For me, those and other subsequent attempts at cheating (like blocking the track at Monaco to end quali' prematurely after he'd set a provisional pole) exclude him from being considered a "great" driver, despite his manifest technical ability - he was an excellent driver but a lousy sportsman, and I think that to be great you have to be both. There are plenty who were both, though arguably more in earlier eras when there was less money involved.

 

[DarloRich]

More useful information, worth noting that following today's race, whatever happens, Logan Sergeant will not be able to win the Drivers Championship.

his task is to get a point or two though surely - can he do that by the end of the season? Only him, De Vries and Danny Ricc without points so far.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I agree, particularly for the Damon Hill incident which changed not just points but the outcome of the race and the World Championship. I never regarded that one as being legitimately Schumacher's.

For me, those and other subsequent attempts at cheating (like blocking the track at Monaco to end quali' prematurely after he'd set a provisional pole) exclude him from being considered a "great" driver, despite his manifest technical ability - he was an excellent driver but a lousy sportsman, and I think that to be great you have to be both. There are plenty who were both, though arguably more in earlier eras when there was less money involved.

100% this.

That year's championship is not legitimately Schumacher's. Since the FIA have recently been amending results with a myriad of penalties being applied some hours after the races in question, perhaps they should now amend that result on moral grounds even though it was some time ago.

 

[A0wen]

his task is to get a point or two though surely - can he do that by the end of the season? Only him, De Vries and Danny Ricc without points so far.

Even if he doesn't I think his seat is safe - James Vowels has been quite positive about Sargeant's progress - after all the first 6 races were at tracks which were completely unfamiliar to him and they were street circuits where you can't easily explore the limits of the car without making a bit of a mess.

What was interesting was the Williams chewed up its tyres yesterday, so both their drivers made 3 pit stops (the only other driver to do so was Hamilton and that was because he had a pitstop distance ahead of the next car and it allowed him fresh tyre for the fastest lap). If you assume a pitstop costs the driver 20 secs, if the Williams could have run on 2 sets of tyres then Albon would have been within a second or so of Ocon who finished 8th and Sargeant within a second of Gasly who finished 11th. As it stands he was 3 secs or less than behind Magnussen and Ricciardo despite having stopped once more than either of those.

The challenge for Williams scoring points as Albon has pointed out is you have 3 teams who, if everything else is equal, will take out 6 spots in the Top 10 - RBR, Ferrari and Mercedes, then you've got the likes of Aston or McLaren who have a quicker car than Williams good for a couple more of the places - so in reality Williams need a good start, a circuit which can maximise their car's straight line speed and a bit of bad luck with some others to give them a realistic chance of point scoring.

100% this.

That year's championship is not legitimately Schumacher's. Since the FIA have recently been amending results with a myriad of penalties being applied some hours after the races in question, perhaps they should now amend that result on moral grounds even though it was some time ago.

No - I think that's long gone. They did of course act after he did it a second time against Villeneuve and he was disqualified from that year's championship. He's the only WDC I can think of that's *ever* been disqualified from the whole year - and that alone is sufficient as a stain on his record.

 

[DarloRich]

Even if he doesn't I think his seat is safe - James Vowels has been quite positive about Sargeant's progress - after all the first 6 races were at tracks which were completely unfamiliar to him and they were street circuits where you can't easily explore the limits of the car without making a bit of a mess.

I don't think he is at risk because as you say many of the tracks are new to him, his performances have been fine in that regard and, bluntly, who else can they put in who would do better? Also, I suspect he brings some much needed coin to the team ( although not a pay driver in the sense of recent years)

 

[A0wen]

I don't think he is at risk because as you say many of the tracks are new to him, his performances have been fine in that regard and, bluntly, who else can they put in who would do better? Also, I suspect he brings some much needed coin to the team ( although not a pay driver in the sense of recent years)

He's also part of Williams junior driver programme - so they have invested in him up to this point in junior formulas, so they clearly see the potential.

If he was chucking the car into the wall and totalling it regularly a la Mick Schumacher last year, then I'd agree his days would be numbered, not least because of the impact such losses have on the finances of a team like Williams, Haas or even Alpine to an extent. Instead he's half a season in, has only made a couple of minor mistakes - his drive at Monaco where he had to make some tyres last a ridiculous time and then kept it out of the wall when it turned wet all counted in his favour.

He was 8 seconds down on Albon at the flag yesterday, compare that with Perez (22 secs down on Verstappen), Gasly (9 secs down on Ocon), Ricciardo (23 secs down on Tsunoda), Stroll (23 seconds down on Alonso) and Albon's no slouch.

 

[stuart81]

Even demotivated the car is still miles quicker than the rest.

I would give Verstappen a choice: take the rest of the year off OR drive all the remaining races in my 2010 BMW diesel with 300K+ miles on the clock.

Personally I find the ultra reliability of modern F1 cars frustrating, in the 90's and 00's a race could change several times through mechanical failures.

 

[gswindale]

Personally I find the ultra reliability of modern F1 cars frustrating, in the 90's and 00's a race could change several times through mechanical failures.

Agreed - at the moment, we pretty much know that Red Bull will win. We've lost the interest of Team A having a super fast, but slightly delicate car whereas Team B has a more reliable but not as quick car giving us something to think about as to which would win during the race.

For instance Hungary 97 was "exciting" as you had Damon Hill leading in the Arrows until the final lap when hydraulic failure caused him to slow and finish 2nd behind Villeneuve.

The Monaco 96 race was another "classic" in my view as due to the conditions and dodgy reliability we had no idea who would win until the 2 hours were up with only 3 drivers making it to the flag.

Compare to yesterday with only 2 retirements.

 

[Mogster]

Agreed - at the moment, we pretty much know that Red Bull will win. We've lost the interest of Team A having a super fast, but slightly delicate car whereas Team B has a more reliable but not as quick car giving us something to think about as to which would win during the race.

For instance Hungary 97 was "exciting" as you had Damon Hill leading in the Arrows until the final lap when hydraulic failure caused him to slow and finish 2nd behind Villeneuve.

The Monaco 96 race was another "classic" in my view as due to the conditions and dodgy reliability we had no idea who would win until the 2 hours were up with only 3 drivers making it to the flag.

Compare to yesterday with only 2 retirements.

Is waiting for cars to break down that interesting? I think it’s easy to romanticise those 90s refuelling events, and I do re-watch them from time to time on F1 TV archive. It wasn’t unusual to have 50% retirements, then for the last 1/3 of the event you have very few cars on track. Strategy leant towards overtaking during pit stops and spacing the cars on track. I’d rather watch cars racing than waiting to see who’s lucky enough not to break down, I’d rather watch overtaking on track than in the pits.

2023 without Verstappen is one of the closest fields we‘ve seen, you really don’t know who’s going to on the podium when the weekend starts. During the race there is usually wheel to wheel action somewhere in the field all of the way through the race. The director just needs to get better at showing it, although TV presentation is a lot better than it used to be when they’d just follow the leader for the whole race pretty much.