FOSS Rover

[ian13]

On what TOCs is the Freedom of Severn and Solent Rover valid? National rail says "Arriva Trains Wales, First Great Western, South West Trains, CrossCountry ", which means that Southern and London Midland are out of the question - I'm trying to think of any particularly annoying implications of this. On the same page they also say "The Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section."

I can't seem to get it on Avantix Traveller, and the most recent 'G' I could find seemed to imply it was limited to those TOCs and also "First Great Western Cheap Day Return time restriction easements that allow travel before 0900 hrs apply." whatever that means. (Are the old slam doors still on the Lymington Pier branch?) Any ideas?

Cheers,

 

[Ferret]

The Lymington branch was slam door stock yesterday...

 

[devon_metro]

Southern and LM will accept it.

 

[ian13]

Thanks for the replies. Will the 'time restriction easements' allow for earlier travel from Bristol P'way on any route?

 

[devon_metro]

The first service from Parkway will be the 0902 to Swindon.

 

[tony_mac]

National Rail enquiries told me this:

the Freedom of Severn & Solent ticket is not valid on Southern trains even though they use this network. This will be due to the operator not accepting that particular ticket.

 

[glynn80]

National Rail enquiries told me this:

the Freedom of Severn & Solent ticket is not valid on Southern trains even though they use this network. This will be due to the operator not accepting that particular ticket.

Did you get any other replies to the discrepancies you found in a previous topic on this subject?

 

[tony_mac]

Just this.

Our Technical Support Team have confirmed that a few Rangers and Rover tickets were showing with Train Operating Companies (TOC’s) missing from the list of TOC’s ticket which accepted Ranger and Rover tickets such as the Freedom of North West, which I can confirm has been changed.

However, the Freedom of Severn & Solent ticket is not valid on Southern trains even though they use this network. This will be due to the operator not accepting that particular ticket.

If you experience any further problems regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact us.

I know that they added Scotrail to FOTNW but didn't notice anything else.

 

[mrcheek]

London Midland only operate between Great Malvern and Worcester anyway. Ive used them 2 or 3 times on this route and my rover has always been accepted.
Southern only cover bits between Portsmouth and Southampton, so youre not missing much.
The 0900 start can be a nuisance though. Used to be 0800 from Weston-super-Mare, then they changed it. So last time I did a FOSS, I often got singles from Weston to Bristol TM to give myself a slightly earlier start!

 

[tony_mac]

I don't know how it works in practice, but the Bristol to Weymouth CDR is valid from 7:00.

The FOTSW specifically says that it is valid before 9:00 if the CDR is, so I guess that it's valid to Weymouth. I don't know what happens if you decide to break your journey on the way!

 

[John @ home]

On what TOCs is the Freedom of Severn and Solent Rover valid?

A very good question. We debated this recently in the context of another rover. As you say, at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr8bb6ac0a0400040155984b49bbe4b3/details.html National Rail says:

Train Companies: Arriva Trains Wales, First Great Western, South West Trains, CrossCountry

and on the same page National Rail also says:

The Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover provides unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

This is a clear conflict in the advertised conditions of a consumer product. Where there is such a conflict, consumer law is clear that the conflict is resolved in favour of the consumer. For example

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12 [Injunctions to prevent continued use of unfair terms].

It is clear from this that a Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover actually does provide unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section (within the specified times).

I can't seem to get it on Avantix Traveller

Yes, I can get the Avantix Traveller NFM03 CD to show the following "stations":
FOSS ROVER 3 IN7 I863
FOSS ROVER 8IN15 I862
but I don't know how to get it to display the fares and conditions. Does anyone else know?

John

 

[tony_mac]

The list that I gave National Rail of incorrect TOCs on rovers was:-

Freedom of North East
Freedom of Scotland Travelpass
Freedom of Severn and Solent
Freedom of the North West
Freedom of Wales Flexi Pass
Freedom of the South West
Ffestiniog Round Robin
Coast and Peaks

They have added Scotrail to Freedom of the North West (but not NXEC), and they have added XC to Freedom of Scotland (but not TPE)
That is all the changes that I can see, so the above list still applies (I haven't checked all other rovers).

It really wouldn't take a massive amount of work to fix this, or to at least put a clear description next to each ticket (e.g. only valid on these operators etc.) rather than some saying 'all trains' (which they have contradicted by email), or just 'Only valid within the area shown on the map'.

In the meantime, I suppose, we just have to hope we don't find an over-zealous guard who doesn't know the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations.

 

[glynn80]

Where there is such a conflict, consumer law is clear that the conflict is resolved in favour of the consumer.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12 [Injunctions to prevent continued use of unfair terms].

It is clear from this that a Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover actually does provide unlimited use of all National Rail services on the map in the validity section (within the specified times).

Although I agree the situation looks pretty clear cut, can the customer themselves, make a decision on whether terms are unfavourable, surely this would need to be tested in court and a judge to make a ruling before we can start claiming the ticket is definitely valid?

 

[yorkie]

In the meantime, I suppose, we just have to hope we don't find an over-zealous guard who doesn't know the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations.

Why? what are they going to do? Just quote the NCoC to them!

"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such
restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a
ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are
unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under​

Condition 26 or Condition 36."

If it aint shown on the ticket, then it aint restricted/prohibited from that TOC!

 

[tony_mac]

Why? what are they going to do? Just quote the NCoC to them!

It would be less stressful if they just made it clear on the website, like they are supposed to!

Although I agree the situation looks pretty clear cut, can the customer themselves, make a decision on whether terms are unfavourable, surely this would need to be tested in court and a judge to make a ruling before we can start claiming the ticket is definitely valid?

A judge would look at what interpretation an ordinary person would make; I can't think of any way that 'use of all National Rail services' could be reasonably interpreted to mean anything less.

The OFT sometimes intervene and 'advise' companies to change their terms and conditions because they won't possibly stand up in court.

 

[John @ home]

The list that I gave National Rail of incorrect TOCs on rovers was [snip] ... They have added Scotrail to Freedom of the North West (but not NXEC), and they have added XC to Freedom of Scotland (but not TPE)
That is all the changes that I can see

It would be less stressful if they just made it clear on the website, like they are supposed to!

Agreed. Before raising this outside ATOC (who own the National Rail brand), a letter or e-mail to the Chief Executive Michael Roberts may have the desired effect.

can the customer themselves, make a decision on whether terms are unfavourable

No-one is suggesting that a customer makes a decision about terms.

surely this would need to be tested in court and a judge to make a ruling

This implies that laws need to be confirmed by a Court before they come into effect. That is incorrect. In addition, a Court of first instance is rarely able to set a precedent. Authority for that is usually reserved to a higher Court on appeal.

In any case, there is no prospect of such a case coming to Court. The TOCs will avoid any such case for fear of both adverse publicity and an adverse precedent. It is not insignificant that in the previous thread no-one was able to quote any instance of any person being charged any money by a TOC for travelling on a regional rail rover within the area on the relevant map.

... we can start claiming the ticket is definitely valid?

All anyone can do on this forum is state their opinion. My firm opinion is that a FOSS rover is valid on all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

the situation looks pretty clear cut,

From glynn80, that is high praise indeed!

"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such
restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a
ticket that is not valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are
unable to use a ticket or any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under​

Condition 26 or Condition 36."

If it aint shown on the ticket, then it aint restricted/prohibited from that TOC!

Agreed. This is further evidence which confirms my opinion that a FOSS rover is valid on all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

From my FoNW rover in May 2009, the relevant words shown on the ticket are:
Ticket type: FONW 4IN8 DAY
Validity: AS ADVERTISED
Valid: 00M08D
Available: NORTH WEST 4 IN 8 DAY ROVER

John

 

[glynn80]

In any case, there is no prospect of such a case coming to Court. The TOCs will avoid any such case for fear of both adverse publicity and an adverse precedent. It is not insignificant that in the previous thread no-one was able to quote any instance of any person being charged any money by a TOC for travelling on a regional rail rover within the area on the relevant map.

I'm not sure they would avoid a case because of adverse publicity (although I do agree "this case" would likely never reach court, because it is so easy for ATOC to resolve in their favour anyway). There is past evidence of court cases involving TOCs fighting to defend T&Cs. The famous example was GNER taking a gentleman to court who used a Rover as a Season Ticket when combining tickets on a non-stop train. The court ruled in favour of the gentleman and the conditions were clarified in the 2006 edition of the NRCoC.

All anyone can do on this forum is state their opinion. My firm opinion is that a FOSS rover is valid on all National Rail services on the map in the validity section.

And mine, but only as long as that statement is written on the pages of the National Rail website. As soon as a TOC flags up that they do not accept and are receiving no revenue from a particular Rover, the words on the National Rail site are free to be changed in favour of the TOC (basically what I'm trying to say is the ticket is not inherently valid, it is only valid due to a contractual wording error).

Just an aside also, are "Terms & Conditions" classed acutally as "Consumer Contracts" in the OFT sense of the word? I of course agree the NRCoC is a consumer contract, but are T&Cs related to tickets, contracts in the same way?

 

[yorkie]

...the words on the National Rail site are free to be changed in favour of the TOC (basically what I'm trying to say is the ticket is not inherently valid, it is only valid due to a contractual wording error)....

They can word the website however they want and it makes no difference; the ticket is clearly valid on all TOCs in the area.

Equally, when trains are diverted off their route into the areas of rovers or tickets where they'd not normally be valid, then those tickets become valid.

When Virgin go via Dumfries, "Route Dumfries" tickets are valid. When NXEC go via Carlisle, Hadrians Wall Rovers are valid, North East Rovers are valid to Carlisle on them, North West Rovers are valid, and so on.

The franchises change so often anyway, it would be far better to NOT list any TOCs on any of the rovers. Instead, maps should be made available. Passengers generally don't care which TOC runs the service as long as the train goes where they want to go.

TOCs should be discouraged from withdrawing from rovers, but if they do it is only enforceable if it is stated "on the ticket" (quote from NCoC).

This has pretty much all been said before as this is basically a repeat of a previous topic!

 

[glynn80]

They can word the website however they want and it makes no difference; the ticket is clearly valid on all TOCs in the area.

Err, how is it "clearly valid" on all TOCs in the area (when I say valid I am talking inherently not with the wording currently, I of course agree it is currently valid with the wording on the website). We have already established that there is no obligation for any TOC to participate within a Rover scheme and they have the ability to opt out (as seen with Southern).

The exact wording given was "However, the Freedom of Severn & Solent ticket is not valid on Southern trains even though they use this network. This will be due to the operator not accepting that particular ticket.

The franchises change so often anyway, it would be far better to NOT list any TOCs on any of the rovers. Instead, maps should be made available. Passengers generally don't care which TOC runs the service as long as the train goes where they want to go.

The TOCs will not approve any resolution which would so severely restrict their ability to decide their own unregulated fares policy. Surely this would go against the whole principle of private industry within the railway.

Also the list of TOCs is seemingly not really there for the passengers benefit (i.e. to clarify) but their for the TOCs to make clear which of them, the tickets are not accepted on.

TOCs should be discouraged from withdrawing from rovers, but if they do it is only enforceable if it is stated "on the ticket" (quote from NCoC).

Agreed, TOCs should be discouraged as in the GNER situation where they tried to back out of the NE Rover and there was a furious backlash.

 

[ian13]

It does say on the ticket "as advertised" (I anticipate), which means it's stated on the ticket in so far as you have to check advertisements to clarify the tickets validity (which here states it's valid so is a non-issue).