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Four people Manchester Airport (MIA) to Edinburgh (EDB). What if plane is late?

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suzanneparis

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Thanks but I would never claim on insurance for something like this. On the very rare occasions I have claimed in the past it has caused me grief when renewing.

Regarding the tickets I buy it seems it is as I initially suggested. There isn't any backup due to the fact that TPE don't run any later services on the Sunday. So my only option would be to buy an expensive set of tickets for the later service.

Would the ticket office at MIA give me any credit for the tickets I had already bought? To be used against the cost of the later train tickets?

But thanks everyone for your help. It seems I am out of luck on this one.

PS I have contacted TPE using the online form.
 
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Starmill

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I wouldn't. This is not the railway's failing, it is a concession by TPE. Why would Virgin, who get none of the fare, be willing to step in in this case?

This is exactly the sort of attitude that we should fight against. It wouldn't be the case under a nationalised operator and it still shouldn't be now. Fragmentation, division and 'looking out for your own' like this make our Railway weaker.
 

Merseysider

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Neil Williams said:
I wouldn't. This is not the railway's failing, it is a concession by TPE. Why would Virgin, who get none of the fare, be willing to step in in this case?

I would expect TPE to accommodate you on the next train they operate, but that may well be tomorrow, and the hotel would be at your expense.
I'm afraid I must respectfully but strongly disagree. If the passenger is told they will be accommodated on a later train if their flight is late, and then they're told "actually no, you can't get a later train because a different company runs it" what kind of impression will this leave on visitors to the UK? And what kind of crap PR-suicidal toc would abandon a passenger overnight in Preston? ("yes, we're going to Edinburgh, but this is a red train not a blue one. Sod off.")

If TPE are offering Airport Advances on their last train of the day then that is their fault, not the passenger's, because they shouldn't promise to carry you on a later train if there ISN'T a later train.
 

Agent_c

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If TPE are offering Airport Advances on their last train of the day then that is their fault, not the passenger's, because they shouldn't promise to carry you on a later train if there ISN'T a later train.


Their promise is limited to FTPE express trains though (and specifically says this), not just "any train".
 

tony_mac

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Regarding the tickets I buy it seems it is as I initially suggested. There isn't any backup due to the fact that TPE don't run any later services on the Sunday. So my only option would be to buy an expensive set of tickets for the later service.
The off-peak return is not massively more expensive than the Advance tickets will be (£74.20 return for an adult); they are valid on any train on the route via Carlisle.
 

najaB

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If TPE are offering Airport Advances on their last train of the day then that is their fault, not the passenger's, because they shouldn't promise to carry you on a later train if there ISN'T a later train.
So you believe they should make the customer buy a more expensive ticket because there isn't another FTPE train that day?
 

Merseysider

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So you believe they should make the customer buy a more expensive ticket because there isn't another FTPE train that day?
No, I'm saying they should simply remove the "Airport" from the last "Airport Advance" of the day if they aren't prepared to arrange onwards travel.
Agent_c said:
Their promise is limited to FTPE express trains though (and specifically says this), not just "any train".
I recognise this, but some might not. Some won't think to check which train company is running the trains two hours later.
 

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As I mentioned above, the £74.20 off-peak return is flexible (any train/operator via Carlisle, change where you like).
After the 1800 direct (TPE) on Sunday 31 May, there is:
1927 TPE Airport to Preston arr 2033, dep 2053 on Virgin arr Edinburgh 2327
There are no later trains which would get you to Edinburgh that night.
So that would be 74+49+37=£160 all up with a free child.
I don't think you will get cheaper/more flexible than that.

There is also this option:
1833 TPE Airport to York arr 2012, dep 2032 on Cross Country arr Edinburgh 2304
But the off-peak return fare via York is £100.80.
 

najaB

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No, I'm saying they should simply remove the "Airport" from the last "Airport Advance" of the day if they aren't prepared to arrange onwards travel.
The non 'Airport' Advance tickets are more expensive than the corresponding Airport Advance as they are priced by VEC or VWC rather than FTPE.
 

yorkie

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I do not believe the intention is that a passenger would be stuck at an intermediate station. However, as stated earlier, I would simply ask TPE the question.
"We are considering booking an Airport Advance on the 1800 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh Waverley on <date>.

An important part of our decision whether or not to travel by rail is regarding the arrangements if our flight is late arriving.

We are extremely pleased to learn that TPE has a policy of endorsing our tickets to accommodate us on later services, and would like confirmation that this would also apply on the 1829 and 1933 TPE departures and connecting services. If not, please advise which services we would be accommodated on"
If TPE do endorse the tickets for later travel, then obviously there is no problem.

If TPE say they will not endorse travel for later that day and say you must stay overnight (unlikely, in my opinion, but possible) then I would either book a refundable hotel or a cheap 'throwaway' hotel (e.g. Travelodge family room) that you can afford to forget about if your flight isn't late. Or, of course, buy a walk-up ticket or use an alternative mode of transport.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is exactly the sort of attitude that we should fight against. It wouldn't be the case under a nationalised operator and it still shouldn't be now. Fragmentation, division and 'looking out for your own' like this make our Railway weaker.

If you want a flexible ticket, buy one. This is an inflexible ticket at a hefty discount. TPE are being nicer than most TOCs in allowing the flexibility for a late flight.
 

yorkie

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As I mentioned above, the £74.20 off-peak return is flexible (any train/operator via Carlisle, change where you like)......

....But the off-peak return fare via York is £100.80.
Note that a passenger holding an Off Peak Return from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport routed via Carlisle who returns via York would be liable to pay no greater than HALF the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare, as per the rules for change of route.

Ignoring any Railcards, for the full fares quoted above that would be £13.30. Of course this would be reduced if a Railcard was held, and further reduced for a child fare.
 

Bletchleyite

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If TPE are offering Airport Advances on their last train of the day then that is their fault, not the passenger's, because they shouldn't promise to carry you on a later train if there ISN'T a later train.

What about them offering them on *the* last train of the day?

There is a next train, it's tomorrow. For complex, international, multimodal journeys one takes travel insurance to pay for the incidental expenses e.g. a hotel.
 

yorkie

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If you want a flexible ticket, buy one. This is an inflexible ticket at a hefty discount. TPE are being nicer than most TOCs in allowing the flexibility for a late flight.
Agreed but if that flexibility does not apply for the 1800 departure, then I agree with JakeF that the ticket name should be amended and this fact made clear.

I do not believe the intention is to make people be stranded somewhere like Preston.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm afraid I must respectfully but strongly disagree. If the passenger is told they will be accommodated on a later train if their flight is late, and then they're told "actually no, you can't get a later train because a different company runs it" what kind of impression will this leave on visitors to the UK?

Depends on where they're from. In Poland the state-owned intercity operator (which, by the way, operates compulsory reservations so will tell you to go away even if it *is* their train but it's full) has no ticket acceptance at all between them and the regional operator, for example. And air passengers are well used to the fact that if the BA is cancelled you can't go crying to easyJet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed but if that flexibility does not apply for the 1800 departure, then I agree with JakeF that the ticket name should be amended and this fact made clear.

I do not believe the intention is to make people be stranded somewhere like Preston.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/tickets-offers/tickets/tickets-explained/

"Although the ticket is train specific, as a special concession, customers with an Airport Advance ticket (with an origin of Manchester Airport OR Lpool Airport Bus), will be allowed, if your flight is delayed, to travel on the next available First TransPennine Express service to your destination."

Seems clear enough to me. But what would you rename it to? TransPennine Airport Advance would I guess do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do not believe the intention is to make people be stranded somewhere like Preston.

No, I expect they would be advised to take a room in an airport hotel, claim the cost on their travel insurance policy, and come back for the next TPE train tomorrow. Which is roughly what would happen if they missed the last *train*, I reckon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would the OP perhaps share with us (unless I've missed it)...

1. What flight it is (there are lots of online sites that give punctuality stats for given flights).

2. How much time they have left between arriving at the airport, and whether baggage needs to be collected, before the train departs?

That might help us determine how sensible a plan it is.
 
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suzanneparis

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Many thanks everyone. A very interesting conversation. I am a pensioner and hence remember the old nationalised railway system.

Whatever the reasons for it I do find the current fragmented system bewildering. So much so that even my local ticket office sometimes has difficulty sorting out the cheapest ticket.

Anyway to answer your question. The flight lands at 16:30 and I looked online and discovered that for the last two months (approx) it has been on time. (though there was an incident over a year ago when it was very late). Furthermore, passengers will only have hand luggage - which helps.

So it is reasonably likely that the flight will be on time.

But, we must make it to Edinburgh that evening and so I want a plan B. Maybe the suggestion of buying 'off peak' return is an idea. But when I look I cannot see that it is valid on ANY route with ANY operator. For example could I go/return via York or must I go the route up through Carlisle? Or am I doing something wrong?

We are: 1 adult, 1 adult with over 60 railcard, one 12 year old (child fare presumably), 1 four year old (free presumably) and I cannot quite find the total cost you mention.

Thanks again. It's very interesting that dealing with different railway companies causes so many problems.
 

Bletchleyite

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But, we must make it to Edinburgh that evening

A possibly silly question - might a flight direct to Edinburgh (from your origin) be worth considering if that is absolutely critical? It would take out some variables if it were an option, and if we're talking plenty of time hence may not be an expensive proposition.

As for what you're saying, I think I *might* be inclined to take the risk and buy an Off Peak on the day were it to be necessary, as it does sound like *most likely* the connection will work.
 
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yorkie

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Maybe the suggestion of buying 'off peak' return is an idea. But when I look I cannot see that it is valid on ANY route with ANY operator. For example could I go/return via York or must I go the route up through Carlisle? Or am I doing something wrong?

We are: 1 adult, 1 adult with over 60 railcard, one 12 year old (child fare presumably), 1 four year old (free presumably) and I cannot quite find the total cost you mention.
If you buy the via Carlisle ticket, you do have to travel via Carlisle, which is the quickest route normally (direct trains go this way).

You only have to pay more on either leg of the journey if you end up going via York, on one of the legs and the Guard would only charge you half the difference to go via York in one direction

The fares between Edinburgh & Manchester Airport via Carlisle are as follows (and are the same price in either direction)

Undiscounted
Edinburgh <> Manchester Airpt Off Peak R via Carlisle £74.20 - adult
Edinburgh <> Manchester Airpt Off Peak R via Carlisle £37.10 - child
Senior Railcard Discount
Edinburgh <> Manchester Airpt Off Peak R via Carlisle £49.00 - SNR
Family Railcard Discount - if you choose to purchase one
Edinburgh <> Manchester Airpt Off Peak R via Carlisle £49.00 - FAM (Saving £25.20)
Edinburgh <> Manchester Airpt Off Peak R via Carlisle £14.10 - Child FAM (Saving £23.00)
The cheapest way to buy a Family Railcard is to use clubcard points if you, or anyone you know, uses Tesco. The full price is £30 and is available at staffed ticket offices or online.

Thanks again. It's very interesting that dealing with different railway companies causes so many problems.
There might not be a problem, but until and unless we have TPE's assurances that they will endorse the ticket for the 1829 and 1933 TPE departures and appropriate connections (a letter worded as suggested in post #40 gives a decent chance of a positive response) it's safe to assume there might be a problem.
 
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Merseysider

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yorkie said:
There might not be a problem, but until and unless we have TPE's assurances that they will endorse the ticket for the 1829 and 1933 TPE departures and appropriate connections (a letter worded as suggested in post #40 gives a decent chance of a positive response) it's safe to assume there might be a problem.
Completely agree.
In my experience, TPE are quite quick to reply to emails, so if you contact them now you should receive a response in time to still be able to book the Airport Advance (before it goes up in price).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Neil Williams said:
A possibly silly question - might a flight direct to Edinburgh (from your origin) be worth considering if that is absolutely critical? It would take out some variables if it were an option, and if we're talking plenty of time hence may not be an expensive proposition.

As for what you're saying, I think I *might* be inclined to take the risk and buy an Off Peak on the day were it to be necessary, as it does sound like *most likely* the connection will work.
Indeed.

This is good advice if TPE indicate they will not sort you out on [other companies'] services and connections if your flight is late.
 
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tony_mac

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But, we must make it to Edinburgh that evening and so I want a plan B. Maybe the suggestion of buying 'off peak' return is an idea. But when I look I cannot see that it is valid on ANY route with ANY operator. For example could I go/return via York or must I go the route up through Carlisle? Or am I doing something wrong?
There isn't much benefit to travelling via York. It is more expensive and slower - at best it will save you 20 minutes over waiting for the next service via Carlisle.
Even more so for your return - travelling via York would not save more than 10 minutes than waiting for the next service via Carlisle, and will cost quite a lot more as you will need an 'Anytime' ticket for travel before 09:30. (The off-peak ticket 'via Carlisle' is valid at any time of day).
 

suzanneparis

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Thanks again. We already have the tickets and anyway there isn't a flight to Edinburgh.

Regarding the train tickets. If I buy the cheapest for the TPE at 18:00 but miss it. What credit if any will the ticket office give me for travelling to Edinburgh on the 18:33 or the 18:46 both of which go via York?

Note my OUT journey is FROM Manchester Airport. And it's on SUNDAY 31 May.

As far as I can see there isn't a train after 18:00 which goes via Carlisle so the conversation about that route and ticket price is not relevant unless I have missed something.

But thanks again everyone. I wouldn't be able to navigate my way through all of this without your help.

I should mention that for the return journey from Edinburgh to Manchester airport there is not a problem. We are just catching an early train from Edinburgh.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Regarding the train tickets. If I buy the cheapest for the TPE at 18:00 but miss it. What credit if any will the ticket office give me for travelling to Edinburgh on the 18:33 or the 18:46 both of which go via York?

I expect you would (but I'm not totally certain and it is worth asking in advance to TPE, as some staff may be unhelpful in this regard) get your ticket endorsed to be able to travel as far as you could on TPE services, but you wouldn't get any financial credit.
 
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yorkie

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Regarding the train tickets. If I buy the cheapest for the TPE at 18:00 but miss it. What credit if any will the ticket office give me for travelling to Edinburgh on the 18:33 or the 18:46 both of which go via York?
I would send a letter along the lines I posted in post #40, keeping it as simple as possible and wording it in such a way that a positive response is likely.

If TPE agree you will be accommodated, you have nothing to worry about.

If TPE state you will not be accommodated, then I would not take the risk, and instead purchase flexible Off Peak Return tickets via Carlisle.

If you decide to travel via York (to arrive at 2304 instead of 2327) you may be asked to pay an excess fare to change it to route: via York. This cost is £22.75 for the group if you obtain a Family Railcard. There is no extra to pay if you take the later train via Preston, arriving 2327.
Note my OUT journey is FROM Manchester Airport. And it's on SUNDAY 31 May.
I've amended my earlier post accordingly.
As far as I can see there isn't a train after 18:00 which goes via Carlisle so the conversation about that route and ticket price is not relevant unless I have missed something.
There is a 1929 option via Carlisle, changing at Preston.

But even if you wanted to take the 1833 via York, you'd still be better off purchasing the via Carlisle ticket, because you will almost certainly wish to travel via Carlisle when travelling from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport, as this is the route direct trains take. You then only need pay half the difference between the cheaper via Carlisle fare and the more expensive via York fare, because you only require to pay the excess in one direction.

Also, as tony_mac says above, you don't want to be purchasing the via York fare because it will cause you problems in the Edinburgh to Manchester Airport direction (problems that would not have existed before privatisation, but that's a whole new topic!)

But thanks again everyone. I wouldn't be able to navigate my way through all of this without your help.

I should mention that for the return journey from Edinburgh to Manchester airport there is not a problem. We are just catching an early train from Edinburgh.
That's the 0615 or 0812 direct train? You definitely want to be getting the via Carlisle return ticket, and not the via York return ticket!
 

suzanneparis

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Hmm....

How about this suggestion.
If I buy the cheapest tickets for the 18:00 from MIA to Edinburgh and miss it. Would it be reasonable for TPE to put us on the train to York departing at 18:46 ? (Note that this includes a journey to Manchester Pic on Northern rail which may be a problem??).

Then I could buy tickets for York to Edinburgh. I would be into York in time for the 20:53 to Edinburgh. The price for the tickets from York to Edinburgh seem to vary week by week. Which makes me worry that I would end up paying a fortune. Currently it is showing £73-45 for all 4 of us (3+ under 4 yr old).
However, tomorrow is showing £180 !! for that journey. This makes me worry that the price on the day would be £180 not £73-45. Any thoughts?

Hello yorkie and thanks for the post.

The 19:29 takes 11 hours for the journey. Which is a bit too long in terms of time.
 
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yorkie

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Hmm....

How about this suggestion.
If I buy the cheapest tickets for the 18:00 from MIA to Edinburgh and miss it. Would it be reasonable for TPE to put us on the train to York departing at 18:46 ? (Note that this includes a journey to Manchester Pic on Northern rail which may be a problem??).
Have you sent a suitably worded letter to TPE along the lines I posted in post #40?

If TPE say they will not accommodate you on their 1833 or 1929 and connecting services through to Edinburgh, simply buy the flexible return tickets via Carlisle.
Then I could buy tickets for York to Edinburgh. I would be into York in time for the 20:53 to Edinburgh. The price for the tickets from York to Edinburgh seem to vary week by week. Which makes me worry that I would end up paying a fortune. Currently it is showing £73-45 for all 4 of us (3+ under 4 yr old).
However, tomorrow is showing £180 !! for that journey. This makes me worry that the price on the day would be £180 not £73-45. Any thoughts?
Assuming that you obtain a Family Railcard, the cost for Edinburgh - York on the day of travel would be £55.05 per adult, and £15.85 for a child aged between 5 & 16 on the date the Railcard was purchased, totalling £125.95 for the group.

York - Edinburgh only costs only a tiny bit less than Manchester Airport - Edinburgh via York. This is because the York - Edinburgh route operates without subsidy and is a premium 'cash cow' route for which walk-up flexible passengers must be fleeced (but that, too, is a whole new topic! :lol:)
 

yorkie

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The 19:29 takes 11 hours for the journey. Which is a bit too long in terms of time.
The date of travel is Sunday 31 May 2015, right?

The journey takes 3 hours 58 mins.
 

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suzanneparis

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Bizarre on NRE I have 19:29 arrive 06:36

I don't know how to insert an image into my post.

=================

OK then.... assuming there is a train at 19:29 on Sunday. What would be the cheapest way for me to buy the tickets from MIA to Ed. But so that I could go on the earlier 18:00 if I can.

Thanks again

Sorry. Meant to say that I did email transpenine. Don't expect I shall get a reply for a while...
 
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yorkie

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If you want flexibility, the cheapest way to get flexibility is to do as follows:

1) Obtain a Family & Friends Railcard (using the Tesco clubcard offer)
2) Obtain Manchester Airport - Edinburgh Off Peak Returns with the Railcard discount

Then relax in the knowledge that you need not pay anything extra (unless you choose to get the 1833 changing at York in which case the Guard will ask you to pay an excess fare for the group for the privilege of travelling via York.)
...I would be into York in time for the 20:53 to Edinburgh.....
By the way the first available Edinburgh train out of York (if you end up getting the 1833) is the 2032, arriving 2304, which is quicker than waiting for the 2053 arriving 2331.
 

tony_mac

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There is also a 15% discount when buying the railcard online.
http://www.idealhomeshow.co.uk/offers/931-get-15-discount-on-railcards
You can buy the tickets in advance, or at the station on arrival, for the same price.

Buying the tickets in advance gives you the opportunity to reserve seats.
(If things were to go horribly wrong with the trains, it may theoretically be better to have pre-purchased tickets - but that isn't something I would really worry about.)

However, if there is a problem with the flight, and you need to travel the next day (etc.), having bought in advance it will cost £10 per ticket to change the outward date.
 

suzanneparis

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Oh dear.

After all that it now seems that there are going to be strikes. Does anyone have any idea of the dates for the strikes as I was hoping to buy in advance.

I think I read something about strikes affecting one of the train companies I was planning to use.

Maybe I will rent a car instead :(
 
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