Franchise Changes

[HH]

WHAT??!!!!

I thought that might surprise you. My logic though is flawless:

1. NX absolutely have to win a meaningful Franchise (ET is too small to count) and this is their best chance in the near future.

2. Dean Finch, their CEO, regards GW as his baby. He sat there running it, like a puppet master, while others were officially the MD. Dean was also in overall charge of rail bidding when First won the Franchise last time.

3. Elaine Holt* also has strong reasons to want to win it, and so do other NX Execs that Dean has brought on board. I'm told that Paul Furze-Waddock (First's former bid head and GW Director) has left Virgin to join NX.

They will put in a very (£) competitive bid I feel sure. And will First, with all its current cashflow difficulties, be able to match them? Don't forget, like a lot of people seem to here, that this is first and foremost about who pays most.

*If she's still there. I hear a scurrilous story that a disgruntled contractor gave NX's bid to the opposition. This might mitigate against an NX victory, but I think that Dean's smart enough to turn that around.

 

[LE Greys]

This might make some interesting reading if anyone want's to read it. On clearing out one of my old USB sticks to make way for a 'fresh' load of coursework, i ended up finding National Express 2005/2006 Bidding details for the GW franchise - which i think, were proudly published by NX at the time...rather not the case these days then.

Thank god they didnt get the GW Franchise, as theres a fair amount of the rather repetative 'National Express will bring ''Fresh new thinking'''...and National Express will bring ''Fresh New Ideas'''...Like the Fresh New Thinking brought into East Coast (By virtually killing off all the catering? and removing the former award winning Anglian buffet / resturant services from 'ONE' then?)....

Exactly! Although I seem to remember that the government said that they did not want First to bid for the new Greater Anglia (can't remember why) but did not mind GB Railways bidding. First promptly bought GB Railways, and didn't win the franchise.

 

[HH]

Exactly! Although I seem to remember that the government said that they did not want First to bid for the new Greater Anglia (can't remember why) but did not mind GB Railways bidding. First promptly bought GB Railways, and didn't win the franchise.

I don't recall what the official line was, but the unofficial reason was that the deal First had done on FNW was discovered to be rather worse for DfT than they'd realised at the time they agreed it.

 

[Manchester77]

My preferences for the four franchises are -

Essex Thameside (C2C):
National Express to retain.
Because, they gave the line new trains and it isn't that bad. However, I'd like them to put them back in the blue and magenta livery.
Greater Western (First Great Western):
First to retain.
Because, national express in my opinion shouldn't really be trusted with an intercity franchise yet. If they gain more local services then it would allow assessment to see if they'd be ready to take another big intercity franchise. Arriva have ridiculous fares on XC and I wouldn't like to see them on GWML. Stagecoach I wouldn't mind though. I also like stagecoaches livery
Thameslink (First Capital Connect):
Don't really use services but my choice would be govia.
Intercity West Coast (Virgin Trains):
Virgin to keep.
Because they have increased line speed and they don't do a bad job.

 

[HH]

My preferences for the four franchises are -

Essex Thameside (C2C):
National Express to retain.
Because, they gave the line new trains...

As has already been pointed out, it was Prism that got the new trains. NX bought Prism.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Virgin to keep.
Because they have increased line speed.

So it wasn't Network Rail then who were in charge of a multi-billion pound scheme including line and signalling upgrades that allowed linespeed improvements and 125mph running with tilt, but Virgin?

 

[Schnellzug]

It was Virgin that wanted to turn the WCML into a Ligne à Grande Vitesse for their own exclusive use, though, wasn't it? or at least, they wanted the fast lines for their exclusive use, and all the plebs would have to make do with the slows. Even if it may just have been their PR at work again, it did seem to be Virgin driving the project.

 

[Aictos]

They will put in a very (£) competitive bid I feel sure. And will First, with all its current cashflow difficulties, be able to match them? Don't forget, like a lot of people seem to here, that this is first and foremost about who pays most.

I hope this is not the case because if it is then it's obvious that NX have not learnt from the fiasco that was National Express East Coast if they put in such a bid!

 

[Failed Unit]

So it wasn't Network Rail then who were in charge of a multi-billion pound scheme including line and signalling upgrades that allowed linespeed improvements and 125mph running with tilt, but Virgin?

Anything positive on the WCML is down Virgin, anything negative rail track. Don't forget it!

 

[All Line Rover]

A FGW HST is better than a pendo, but a pendo is far better than an EMT HST.

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? I find FGW's high-density seating to be even more claustrophobic than the seating on a Pendolino. Pendolinos also have four First Class carriages. What type of train beats that?

 

[87015]

As has already been pointed out, it was Prism that got the new trains. NX bought Prism.

Prism only brought in the 357/0s, they had planned to keep a 312 fleet alongside them. NX went for the second batch as 357/2 fleet themselves. I belive NX also own outright (ie not NR) the DOO mirrors and cameras.

Some of the "reasoning" in here is beyond giggles, personally I think they are all as bad as each other but credit were it is due for c2c, far better than FGW/VT/FCC/SN every day of the week...

 

[All Line Rover]

Virgin, I'd let keep theirs even though I don't like Pendolinos and will never forgive them for what they did to WSMR.

I always laugh when people say this. Virgin did NOT put WSMR out of business. WSMR put themselves out of business by having a business strategy that never made sense. There simply isn't any demand for a direct Wrexham to London service that takes hours on end going via Birmingham and the Chilterns. Wrexham isn't a particularly prosperous place - there is barely enough demand for a fast, once a day service in each direction. The only reason why those two Virgin trains have sky high fares is because they are heavily used between Chester and London.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? I find FGW's high-density seating to be even more claustrophobic than the seating on a Pendolino. Pendolinos also have four First Class carriages. What type of train beats that?

I certainly like the refurbed HSTs on FGW, ahead of any other TOC's atempt I'd say. I also think that having four First Class carriages on a 390 is seen as being too much isn't it, especially in comparison to just five Standard ones, that existed fully from 2004~-2011, and still exists in part now?

 

[87015]

I certainly like the refurbed HSTs on FGW, ahead of any other TOC's atempt I'd say. I also think that having four First Class carriages on a 390 is seen as being too much isn't it, especially in comparison to just five Standard ones, that existed fully from 2004~-2011, and still exists in part now?

There IS a demand for some WCML sets to have high levels of FC provision for peak hour Manchesters and some Birminghams - always has been.

The nonsense is specing the whole fleet around a handful of trains and pushing your way that this is the best and only option. Sadly some people swallow anything the VT PR machine spews out hook, line and sinker.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I always laugh when people say this. Virgin did NOT put WSMR out of business. WSMR put themselves out of business by having a business strategy that never made sense. There simply isn't any demand for a direct Wrexham to London service that takes hours on end going via Birmingham and the Chilterns. Wrexham isn't a particularly prosperous place - there is barely enough demand for a fast, once a day service in each direction. The only reason why those two Virgin trains have sky high fares is because they are heavily used between Chester and London.

I agree with you in chief, however I do wonder if Virgin would ever have bothered if WSMR never existed, something tells me that WSMR getting some form of market to Wrexham influenced Virgin's decision to go there too.

 

[All Line Rover]

I certainly like the refurbed HSTs on FGW, ahead of any other TOC's atempt I'd say. I also think that having four First Class carriages on a 390 is seen as being too much isn't it, especially in comparison to just five Standard ones, that existed fully from 2004~-2011, and still exists in part now?

I agree, it is too much. (Perhaps excluding the very busiest of services that are heavily used by business travellers). It seems very silly for there to be two, maybe three people per carriage on the late evening services, when Standard Class is almost 50% full. But that doesn't make it worse than FGW.

 

[Schnellzug]

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? I find FGW's high-density seating to be even more claustrophobic than the seating on a Pendolino. Pendolinos also have four First Class carriages. What type of train beats that?

In terms of spaciousness, ride quality and general ambience, I think there'd be very much a case for arguing that.
And is really having that many first class at the expense of proletarian class an advantage?

 

[All Line Rover]

In terms of spaciousness, ride quality and general ambience, I think there'd be very much a case for arguing that.
And is really having that many first class at the expense of proletarian class an advantage?

FGW has the same, or fewer, Standard Class carriages than Virgin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with you in chief, however I do wonder if Virgin would ever have bothered if WSMR never existed, something tells me that WSMR getting some form of market to Wrexham influenced Virgin's decision to go there too.

I don't think Virgin would have bothered. But if you were a manager at Virgin at the time, seeing a "rival" business create a new service from Wrexham, would you not also have decided to extend one service in each direction from Chester to Wrexham, a mere 15 minutes away? Seeing as that train would otherwise lie idle at Chester until it is coupled to the train from Holyhead?

One of the main issues with WSMR is that it relied too heavily in leisure travel. It's business travel, not leisure travel, that is the more profitable of the two, and WSMR really struggled to tap into that market.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't have strong feelings on any of them really. The DfT usually calls the shots when it comes to the things that really matter anyway.

Over the years, I've noticed that potential newcomers are highly regarded by some, just don't get the idea that SNCF is going to transform the WCML into LGV Grande-Bretagne or anything.

 

[Failed Unit]

"virgin has fewer standard class coaches than FGW"

?

They both have 5 although both expanding. FGW has more standard class seats however per train.

 

[Schnellzug]

FGW has the same, or fewer, Standard Class carriages than Virgin. .

As a proportion of train length, surely Virgin is extremely profligate (with 9 cars particularly). The argument about more frequent services doesn't really hold any water, since the only way that most people can afford to travel on them is by advance booking, and you're usually limited to one particular train, after all.

 

[fgwrich]

Prism only brought in the 357/0s, they had planned to keep a 312 fleet alongside them. NX went for the second batch as 357/2 fleet themselves. I belive NX also own outright (ie not NR) the DOO mirrors and cameras.

Some of the "reasoning" in here is beyond giggles, personally I think they are all as bad as each other but credit were it is due for c2c, far better than FGW/VT/FCC/SN every day of the week...

And i wonder who brought the C2C Franchise up to the standards its at today? That would be a Mr Mark Hopwood, now of course of FGW MD Fame - As brought into into FGW by Andrew Haines (Bring Him Back First Group!)

 

[David10]

I ended up finding National Express 2005/2006 Bidding details for the GW franchise - which i think, were proudly published by NX at the time...rather not the case these days then.

Thank god they didnt get the GW Franchise, as theres a fair amount of the rather repetative 'National Express will bring ''Fresh new thinking'''...and National Express will bring ''Fresh New Ideas'''...Like the Fresh New Thinking brought into East Coast (By virtually killing off all the catering? and removing the former award winning Anglian buffet / resturant services from 'ONE' then?)....

I think in fairness they all the bidders at this time produced these light and fluffy bits of PR twaddle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although I seem to remember that the government said that they did not want First to bid for the new Greater Anglia (can't remember why) but did not mind GB Railways bidding. First promptly bought GB Railways, and didn't win the franchise.

Richard Bowker (wearing his SRA CEO hat) later said in the trade press that First missed the cut for Greater Anglia because they had assumed they were walk up starters and lodged a sloppy application.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hear a scurrilous story that a disgruntled contractor gave NX's bid to the opposition. This might mitigate against an NX victory, but I think that Dean's smart enough to turn that around.

Seeing they don't even have the final specification against which they are bidding would think NX's bid is along way from finished.

 

[Schnellzug]

Richard Bowker (wearing his SRA CEO hat) later said in the trade press that First missed the cut for Greater Anglia because they had assumed they were walk up starters and lodged a sloppy application.
.

And you'd think they, the Politicians, would get the message from that, wouldn't you, that the quality of a Bid has absolutely no relation to what turns out to be the quality of the service ...

 

[Zoe]

They both have 5 although both expanding. FGW has more standard class seats however per train.

I haven't read about any plans for extra standard class coaches in the FGW formations or is the IEP going to be 6 standard and 2 first?

 

[Failed Unit]

I haven't read about any plans for extra standard class coaches in the FGW formations or is the IEP going to be 6 standard and 2 first?

Lots of it in the press - including converting buffets.

FGW will add an extra coach to the 7 coach sets to make the 8 coach. 5 full standard, 1 standard with the little buffet and 2 first. I think a set may be dispanded as well. Don't know if FGW could operate 9 coach if the wanted. I am sure some FgW staff would be able to give dates.

 

[Zoe]

FGW will add an extra coach to the 7 coach sets to make the 8 coach. 5 full standard, 1 standard with the little buffet and 2 first. I think a set may be dispanded as well. Don't know if FGW could operate 9 coach if the wanted. I am sure some FgW staff would be able to give dates.

Isn't that going to slow down journey times? I seem to remember the reason stated for removing the buffet back in 2006 and reducing the formation to 7 coaches was so that the HSTs would have better acceleration.

 

[Failed Unit]

Isn't that going to slow down journey times? I seem to remember the reason stated for removing the buffet back in 2006 and reducing the formation to 7 coaches was so that the HSTs would have better acceleration.

Probably not by much, remember the buffet is heavier than the standard coach. They will still be all 8 coach HSTs anyway and I am not aware of timing differences between the 7s and the 8s. (happy to be corrected)

Not sure if the speed up of journeys because of removal of buffets is a red herring. I don't recall gner slowing down services when the 9th car was added and the MTUs have extra power compared to the power units in place when the timetable was built.

 

[Zoe]

Not sure if the speed up of journeys because of removal of buffets is a red herring. I don't recall gner slowing down services when the 9th car was added and the MTUs have extra power compared to the power units in place when the timetable was built.

East Coast services though don't tend to stop as much as FGW HSTs which on some routes are effectively outer suburban commuter services.

 

[Failed Unit]

East Coast services though don't tend to stop as much as FGW HSTs which on some routes are effectively outer suburban commuter services.

True, I doubt it will make much difference on London - York non-stop. But they did have them on stoppers as well grantham, Newark, Retford and Doncaster are all close together. I believe that a 9 coach with MTU performance wise is the same as 8 coach Veleta.

You should see the higher density HST on FGW very soon. All supposed to be complete by December. Hope it helps thier overcrowding.