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Free at ticket office but £10 + £2 postage because I bought from EMT onine

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Bletchleyite

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To me, it's almost something I'd go out of my way to try. I say "bring it on" if any TOC feels like disrespecting my contractual rights...

I genuinely cannot understand why you think *starting* on day two is within your contractual rights. I've quoted the T&C of the ticket above, and they very clearly do not allow you to do that. They allow you to continue an already started journey on day two if it was "not possible" to complete it on day one. You cannot in any sense "continue" something you have not started.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I genuinely cannot understand why you think *starting* on day two is within your contractual rights. I've quoted the T&C of the ticket above, and they very clearly do not allow you to do that. They allow you to continue an already started journey on day two if it was "not possible" to complete it on day one. You cannot in any sense "continue" something you have not started.
No, that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to denying travel entirely, or spuriously requiring some kind of evidence of having started the journey.
 

gray1404

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I do actually think there needs to be more respect of a customers right to continue their journey into day 2 and until 0429 on day 3 then there currently is. I've been told point blank when using an off peak return that the outward portion is only valid on day 1, no exceptions. There also needs to be more respect for the fact a customer can break their return journey over the course of a calendar month. I've heard much misinformation on this. (eg, you can break it but has to be over the course of one day. Never had a problem with a ticket marked with a line but as soon as a date is written on it causes problems. Its so disgusting that one is caused all this stress and conflict started by another person who is totally in the wrong, when the passenger is merely acting in accordance with their rights /contract. Yet they could be told their ticket isn't valid, money demanded from them for a new ticket, reported, threatened with police, caused embarrassment, harassment, alarm and distress. Not acceptable.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I do actually think there needs to be more respect of a customers right to continue their journey into day 2 and until 0429 on day 3 then there currently is. I've been told point blank when using an off peak return that the outward portion is only valid on day 1, no exceptions. There also needs to be more respect for the fact a customer can break their return journey over the course of a calendar month. I've heard much misinformation on this. (eg, you can break it but has to be over the course of one day. Never had a problem with a ticket marked with a line but as soon as a date is written on it causes problems. Its so disgusting that one is caused all this stress and conflict started by another person who is totally in the wrong, when the passenger is merely acting in accordance with their rights /contract. Yet they could be told their ticket isn't valid, money demanded from them for a new ticket, reported, threatened with police, caused embarrassment, harassment, alarm and distress. Not acceptable.
Exactly. How would the top brass at TOCs feel if they were treated in that way? I'm sure change would be very rapid.
 

Bletchleyite

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TBH I think they should make the Off Peak Single and outward Off Peak Return properly valid for two days, with that written on the ticket. They should also allow Break of Journey on all tickets within their validity period. And sort out the silliness that needs them to bar it in the first place, like it being cheaper to go to Lancaster than Preston.

After all, in my car I can go when I like and stop off when and where I like.
 

mmh

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This is incorrect. Break of Journey is permitted "if the passenger cannot complete the journey on day 1" or somesuch. There is rather a lot of debate as to what this means, but as an absolute minimum (and expect arguments anyway) you would need to have started the journey on the ticket's printed day of validity, and you would do well to have some evidence of having done this because otherwise you will almost certainly be refused travel.

Completely agreed. I have to say I think I'm afraid a lot of the "advice" @ForTheLoveOf gives is often questionable, and sometimes downright irresponsible. No guard or ticket inspector is going to accept the outward portion of the ticket on a later day than printed on it.

To me, it's almost something I'd go out of my way to try. I say "bring it on" if any TOC feels like disrespecting my contractual rights...

And there's a prime example of this irresponsibility. @ForTheLoveOf you would not go out of your way to try, any more than you would take your countless suggestions of taking TOCs to court. People come on here to ask genuine questions about real journeys and tickets they have - your hypothetical and long-winded diatribes about "rights" help nobody and just confuse people, as they've unfortunately done here. Please, please, stop doing it.
 

robbeech

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I must say, with respect, that I don’t feel the 2 pages of back and forth argument over this has in any way helped @suzanneparis get the information they were trying to obtain.

The long and short of it is that in order to use the ticket on the day after the start day you must have already started the journey, and despite it being unacceptable behaviour you would likely run into trouble as there are a number of staff that are not trained to the standards that they should be. My advice would be to chalk it up to experience and pay the refund fee this time safe in the knowledge that in the future you’ve worked out a better method so won’t run into this issue again.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Completely agreed. I have to say I think I'm afraid a lot of the "advice" @ForTheLoveOf gives is often questionable, and sometimes downright irresponsible. No guard or ticket inspector is going to accept the outward portion of the ticket on a later day than printed on it.
Plenty of guards and ticket inspectors have accepted such tickets perfectly well when I have done this. It does not matter what is printed on the ticket; any guard or ticket inspector worth their salt ought to know that an Off-Peak Period ticket outward portion is valid in this way. If they don't even know that, they shouldn't be inspecting tickets, full stop.

You can call my advice what you like, but ultimately I will continue giving it one way or another.
 

yorkie

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It appears @ForTheLoveOf is arguing that - at least in theory - a Leicester to London SSR could be notionally used for Leicester - Market Harborough on day 1, and then Market Harborough - London on day 2, thus avoiding the £10 admin fee (and £2 postage charge in this case).

However a single from Leicester - Market Harborough costs £10.60, so the saving is £1.40.

The caveats to this saving are that:
  1. Arguably the customer has to be seen to be making an unwanted journey from Leicester to Market Harborough on the day they no longer wish to make their journey (presumably late evening);
  2. On the day they travel to London, the customer has to board a train that calls at Market Harborough (the fastest trains run non-stop) using a combination of Leicester - Market Harborough ticket, and Leicester - London ticket that has been used between Leicester and Market Harborough for an overnight break of journey at Market Harborough.
  3. If their tickets are checked between Leicester and Market Harborough, this would result in huge confusion as to why the customer is using this combination, and the matter might be referred for investigation.
  4. If it was found that the journey was not started on day 1, then arguably the ticket could be deemed invalid. Furthermore, the customer would need to confirm they "could not" - in their opinion - complete their journey on Day 1 (e.g. they caught a late evening train from Leicester and Market Harborough was a convenient location to break their journey overnight)
Have I got this right?
 

Skymonster

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Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day.
While I accept that there may be differing opinions on what 'cannot be completed' means, I think it would be difficult to justify that the Leicester-London journey cannot be completed on the day of issue when every train that leaves Leicester and calls at Market Harborough goes through to London. I'm sure someone will be along shortly mentioning rights to break the journey, but the term used is 'cannot be competed'. The term is not 'chooses not to complete' or 'decides not to complete'. Resuming an outward Leicester-London super offpeak at Market Harborough on the day after it is dated is a position not worth the almost inevitable argument IMHO, especially when the cost of the extra single ticket is taken into consideration.
 

janb

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I do not believe the ticket office were correct in saying this. They can do a non-issue for a short period after sale, but that's different.

'The Manual' always used to have a section where it stated that a customer who had a change of outward date with a walkup ticket should be able to get a refund without a fee, purchasing a replacement ticket. Haven't checked in a while to see if wording has changed at all but the principle still exists. With Northern normally just do a zero excess to change the date as long as its been purchased from Northern ticket office in first place.
 

Deafdoggie

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If you send tickets in the post by regular first or second class mail and obtain proof of postage (i.e. at a Post Office), Royal Mail will reimburse you up to £20 if the item is lost or otherwise not delivered. If you used Signed For, the limit is £50. And if you want it insured to a greater value you'll need to pay extra for that.

The 'requirement' to use recorded delivery doesn't exist as such; it's probably just that they are advising you that they aren't liable for the tickets being lost in the post, and that, due to the value of the tickets, you will need to use the recorded delivery service to be eligible for compensation to the value of the tickets if they are indeed lost.

First class, second class, and their Recorded equivalents only cover the DIRECT cost of replacement. And not any consequential loss or cost. Up to a value of ten times the cost of a first class stamp. The Direct cost of replacing the ticket, is just a piece of card and a bit of ink. It isn’t the cost of a new ticket. To cover that, you’d need Special Delivery with additional consequencal loss insurance. Remember, if the ticket is lost, the direct replacement is a reprint. But it’s the consequence of the loss you want covering. So you need consiquential loss insurance, which is only available on Special Delivery. Cash, and certain other items, are not covered in First, Second (or their Recorded equivalents) regardless.
 

Haywain

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Any attempt at rejecting the ticket is fraught with difficulties in terms of evidence and practicality.
Most of those difficulties will, initially at least, lie with the ticket holder rather than the TOC.
If it was found that the journey was not started on day 1, then arguably the ticket could be deemed invalid. Furthermore, the customer would need to confirm they "could not" - in their opinion - complete their journey on Day 1 (e.g. they caught a late evening train from Leicester and Market Harborough was a convenient location to break their journey overnight)
I suppose it could be argued that such circumstances could arise from a need to return home because of something urgent cropping up and that the journey was continued the next day with the extra ticket.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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First class, second class, and their Recorded equivalents only cover the DIRECT cost of replacement. And not any consequential loss or cost. Up to a value of ten times the cost of a first class stamp. The Direct cost of replacing the ticket, is just a piece of card and a bit of ink. It isn’t the cost of a new ticket. To cover that, you’d need Special Delivery with additional consequencal loss insurance. Remember, if the ticket is lost, the direct replacement is a reprint. But it’s the consequence of the loss you want covering. So you need consiquential loss insurance, which is only available on Special Delivery. Cash, and certain other items, are not covered in First, Second (or their Recorded equivalents) regardless.
Don't think so. A ticket is clearly worth more than just paper and ink, as it would be illegal to produce a forged copy using alternative paper and ink. You have to legitimately acquire it by paying full price for it.

There is nothing in Royal Mail's terms that limits liability in the way you have suggested (to the direct replacement cost of the materials of what has been lost), or to ten times the postage used. The limit is £20 for first or second class regular postage.

In fact, their website specifically gives the example of a pair of jeans. If it was lost when sent by the original manufacturer, whom it cost £10 to produce, they can only recover £10, even if they sold it to the shop for £20. If it was lost when the shop sends it to the customer, they can only recover £20, which is what they paid for it, even if they sold it to the customer for £25. And thus only the customer can recover the full £25 (of course subject to the usual £20 limit for regular post).

In the same analogy for rail tickets, the factory that produces the tickets would only be able to recover the likely tiny cost of producing the tickets, say 2 pence per ticket. If the factory has then sold them to the train company for 5 pence, the train company can recover 5 pence if the tickets are lost en route to being sent to the customer. If, in turn, the customer has paid £20 for the tickets, then even though they cost only 2 pence to manufacture, they would be entitled to compensation on the basis that their direct replacement cost is £20, if the tickets are lost en route to be posted back to the train company.
 

sprunt

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Perhaps to you and to others, the risk of the stress is not worth it over £12 (or £10.70 for a single to Market Harborough).

To me, it's almost something I'd go out of my way to try. I say "bring it on" if any TOC feels like disrespecting my contractual rights...

Given that Bletchleyite has provided a citation containing a clear statement that backs up the case he is making, can you provide one that backs up your contrary view? Not something about how hard it would be for the TOC to prove that you hadn't got on at Market Harborough, but something that backs up your view that you're entitled to start your journey on day 2?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Given that Bletchleyite has provided a citation containing a clear statement that backs up the case he is making, can you provide one that backs up your contrary view? Not something about how hard it would be for the TOC to prove that you hadn't got on at Market Harborough, but something that backs up your view that you're entitled to start your journey on day 2?
I have conceded that point. But starting the use of the ticket from one station further along would mean that problems would only occur if an onboard check occured between Leicester and Market Harborough and between Market Harborough and London, and the guard remembered that you had only had a ticket to Market Harborough the first time they checked. That would seem so exceptionally unlikely that I think it is a "risk" I would be more than happy to undergo.
 

Deerfold

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I have conceded that point. But starting the use of the ticket from one station further along would mean that problems would only occur if an onboard check occured between Leicester and Market Harborough and between Market Harborough and London, and the guard remembered that you had only had a ticket to Market Harborough the first time they checked. That would seem so exceptionally unlikely that I think it is a "risk" I would be more than happy to undergo.

For a saving of £1.40? With a risk of a new ticket to London beng required? You might be happy, but it's worth mentioning the high risk to cost ratio to anyone being advised.
 

tiptoptaff

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Surely, if the issue would "only arise if the ticket was checked" then the OP would not be permitted to do it, otherwise, why would the ticket check cause an issue?!
 

Bletchleyite

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Surely, if the issue would "only arise if the ticket was checked" then the OP would not be permitted to do it, otherwise, why would the ticket check cause an issue?!

Because it's permitted only on a technicality.

The intention of this rule is quite clearly for long journeys where you genuinely can't do it in a day. You can't for instance get all the way from Penzance to Wick in one day even if you try. And another reasonable use-case might be something like going from Milton Keynes Central to Fort William (which I'm going to be doing myself in a couple of weeks) but only being able to leave after work, so doing part of the journey on Friday night and finishing it Saturday morning (or using the Sleeper).

Essentially, for any journey where you might actually run out of trains if you try to do it in one go, or where you can't do it in one go and it still be suitable for what you're actually doing (e.g. it might be worth going to Glasgow after work on Friday, stopping over, and then taking the first train to Fort William the following morning - you'll still get your day in the hills, unlike if you have to do it all during the day Saturday and arrive in the evening). You aren't of course required to continue until you actually run out of trains, but can stop at a point where it might be sensible for e.g. hotel accommodation of your choice.

Breaking your journey one stop in may technically be allowed, but it is going to raise all sorts of suspicions that will create the kind of hassle that isn't worth £1.40 to anyone who can afford to make that journey in the first place.

By all means do it to make a point or further an agenda (not you of course :) ), but advising people to do that who just want to make a train journey without any of that is irresponsible.
 
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RJ

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Given all sb trains calling at Market Harborough go to London, I'm struggling to see how anyone can claim it is necessary to have an overnight BoJ there to get to London.
 

Bletchleyite

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Given all sb trains calling at Market Harborough go to London, I'm struggling to see how anyone can claim it is necessary to have an overnight BoJ there to get to London.

Quite, it's tenuous in the extreme, and not unlikely to leave the OP with the faff of appealing a PF, trying to get an Anytime Single refunded, or worse justifying not being prosecuted. Said appeals would no doubt succeed on said technicality, but they would use far more time and cause far more stress than is worth it for £1.40.

The OP should refund the original ticket against the fee and buy a new one, as I suspect they have probably already done, and chalk up the £12 to experience. That is the only sensible advice.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Quite, it's tenuous in the extreme, and not unlikely to leave the OP with the faff of appealing a PF, trying to get an Anytime Single refunded, or worse justifying not being prosecuted. Said appeals would no doubt succeed on said technicality, but they would use far more time and cause far more stress than is worth it for £1.40.

The OP should refund the original ticket against the fee and buy a new one, as I suspect they have probably already done, and chalk up the £12 to experience. That is the only sensible advice.
Does East Midlands Trains' Penalty Fares scheme even extend from the stations north of Bedford to those south of Bedford? As far as I was aware, there is one EMT scheme for north of Bedford, and another joint EMT and GTR scheme for south of Bedford. A Penalty Fare can only be issued across one scheme, and if an unquestionably ticket is held from Leicester to Market H, with the next stop being London, that could preclude a Penalty Fare being issued.
 

yorkie

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Does East Midlands Trains' Penalty Fares scheme even extend from the stations north of Bedford to those south of Bedford?
No
As far as I was aware, there is one EMT scheme for north of Bedford, and another joint EMT and GTR scheme for south of Bedford.
Yes GTR operate the scheme south of (and including) Bedford, with EMT participating in the scheme.
A Penalty Fare can only be issued across one scheme, and if an unquestionably ticket is held from Leicester to Market H, with the next stop being London, that could preclude a Penalty Fare being issued.
I don't think it was helpful to bring Penalty Fares into this, however the point stands that with a potential saving of £1.40 versus all sorts of potential faff, arguments and charges, it isn't a sensible suggestion to do anything other than pay the admin fee.

Yes the total price, at £12, to change one flexible return ticket, is rather high, but fewer people are going to use the EMT site as a result of this, so I think it's best to chalk it up to experience, pay the £12 and abandon the EMT website for any future purchases.

Trying to get round it just doesn't make sense.
 

suzanneparis

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Thanks everyone. As always you lot are very helpful and very informative. I didn't realise this would be such a hornets nest.

I went for the safe option. I've gone down the route of a refund for the tickets I bought online and lose £12 and chalk it up to experience. I shall buy a new ticket just before travel.

In future I shall only buy at the ticket office and not online.

Again thanks very much to everyone who contributed, you genuinely are a kind bunch of people! Much appreciated.
 

BRX

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I've relatively often used an outward portion over two days, and although I always expect it to be questioned, it hardly ever is. This has tended to be on longish journeys, from the N of Scotland to London, but not ones which would be impossible to complete within a calendar day.
My interpretation of 'not able to complete' has always been that it applies to a journey starting at the time that I choose. Therefore if I choose to start out from Inverness at 7pm on my way to London, it seems reasonable to expect that I can overnight in Glasgow and continue the next morning, as it would not be possible for me to get to London that night. And there could be perfectly reasonable grounds for wanting to start at 7pm, or not being able to start before then.
 
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