• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Free Cornish Bus Travel June to August

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bill Badger

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2008
Messages
284
Thought this probably merited its own thread.


I'm not even going to try to express a view but completely bonkers doesn't begin to cover it
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
Cornwall councils fare pilot has taken a turn

Among the “today I can announce” sound bites at last September’s Conservative Party Conference was Grant Shapps gifting £23.5 million over four years to Cornwall Council to reduce bus fares across the county in the hope of boosting passenger numbers.

At that time a spokeswoman for the unitary authority said “the details were still being worked out but the scheme would be launched in May next year (ie May 2020) and could include a zonal charging system”.

Just in the nick of time this Sunday, 31st May, Phase 1 of what’s become known as “The Cornwall Bus Fares Pilot” gets underway; but in a peculiar twist, instead of reduced fares, it involves completely free bus travel across the county lasting three months until 31st August. Phase 2 with reduced fares will follow on in September which begs the question why on earth introduce free bus fares now, especially at a time when all but essential bus travel is being discouraged, and capacity is severely limited? It defies all logic.

Details of the Scheme were sent out to bus operators only last Friday morning, with a deadline of 5pm tomorrow afternoon, Tuesday, to confirm whether they’ll be participating or not. It’s somewhat concerning so little time over a Bank Holiday weekend is being given for such an important and far reaching decision and then just three days left this week for implementation. And all this at a time when bus companies are struggling to get updated enhanced timetables and schedules organised for lockdown easing with an expected increase in passengers from next weekend.

But it gets even more concerning when you delve into the logic of why free travel is being offered in the first place. Cornwall Council say the scheme,“to kick-start bus travel across the county” as part of a “Transport Recovery Plan” has the short term objective “to restart public transport and offer a service to those people without access to an alternative mode of travel but to do so in compliance with Government guidance for reducing boarding and journey times, limiting contact with the driver and adhering to social distancing seating”.

I’m not sure I get how free travel reduces journey times, but I guess the assumption on reduced boarding times arises because passengers will just be waved on board with no need for driver interaction, ticket issuing etc. Except, no, in the barmy world of free Cornish bus travel, bus operators have to keep a record of “shadow fares” and crucially “passengers should clearly state the destination they want and ticket type. The relevant ticket needs to be printed or mTicket to be utilised”.

So if I’ve got this right passengers will still be expected on boarding the bus to ask for a single ticket to a destination, or maybe a return ticket, or even a weekly ticket, and the driver will issue an appropriate ticket with a zero value (with the ticket machine recording the originally priced ‘shadow’ fare for reimbursement). The passenger keeps their ticket, if a return or a weekly, and shows it on further journeys, even though all travel is free. I understand passengers are even expected to download a zero value weekly mTicket on their phones if they choose that option! This is completely bonkers. Far from speeding up boarding times and reducing interactions with drivers I can see this creating confusion, delays and complex interactions.

How on earth is all this going to be communicated, bearing in mind it starts at the end of the week and bus companies haven’t even agreed to take part yet?. Cornwall Council reckon “messaging must focus on the fact that the services are for Cornish residents who have no alternative but to use public transport to complete their essential journeys, with focus on the positives of reduced travel and interaction time”.

Unbelievably the guidelines continue “no messaging to the public should advertise this provision as an encouragement to get people back on buses”.

This is going to be tortuous; how to let passengers know buses are now free to use, but hey folks, you’re not being encouraged to use them …. and that’s why we’ve swept away fares. This is set to beat “Stay Alert” as a communications fiasco.
 
Last edited:

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
Cornwall councils fare pilot has taken a turn

I wonder what the council members have been smoking during the lockdown.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Cornwall councils fare pilot has taken a turn


Roger French nails it. Cornwall Council and a bull headed approach.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
Roger French nails it. Cornwall Council and a bull headed approach.
So I wonder if FK will sign up to it. I doubt if CC cares either way. Seems that their idea of an integrated bus network excludes anything not operated by TfC.
 

embers25

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2009
Messages
1,809
The TfC wesbite still has nothing and so actual current passngers are still being encouraged to buy montly passes, when travel will be free from June 01. Surely, instead of encouraging passenger growth this will cause existing passengres to think twice. Yet another own goal by Cornwall CC and Citybus must know too by now so they aren't exactly smelling of roses here too again. Interested to see what First Kernow do. They must be tearing their hair out having done so much to build services back after years of neglect, only for Cornwall CC to utterly screw them all up again.
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
The TfC wesbite still has nothing and so actual current passngers are still being encouraged to buy montly passes, when travel will be free from June 01. Surely, instead of encouraging passenger growth this will cause existing passengres to think twice. Yet another own goal by Cornwall CC and Citybus must know too by now so they aren't exactly smelling of roses here too again. Interested to see what First Kernow do. They must be tearing their hair out having done so much to build services back after years of neglect, only for Cornwall CC to utterly screw them all up again.

If the council are offering reasonable reimbursement it may well be a good scheme for First Kernow to participate in, whilst Passenger numbers rebuild.
If one operator participates all will need to or risk financial suicide.
Nobody will pay to go on one operator if the other is free
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
The wording suggests that it's not only First Kernow that has a choice whether to sign up, but also the TfC participating operators rather than being in the scheme by default. I guess it resolves the query about whether the TfC contract is net or gross cost.
 

embers25

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2009
Messages
1,809
It would be humourous is no-one signed up but I can't see that happening as I'm assuming TfC will be'convinced' to...unless Government cover of services is better than council reimbursement. Interesting on whether it'll cover cross border services to Saltash and Bude and therefore Stagecoach too? The 6 being free from Exeter would be nice!
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
April the first has passed so I have to assume this is for real. I realise Cornwall likes to be see as not really part of England however this does suggest it's run by people who are not really part of this planet! I'd suggest the challenge of getting all the TfC services to actually run properly would be enough for next week, not dealing with the situation where a scheme to promote bus travel is being launched at the same time as schemes to discourage people from visiting Cornwall and trying to stop people making unnecessary journeys by bus! I realise the money for this is already ring fenced so Cornwall cant spend it any other way, however just throwing it away isn't really an answer and somebody in Westminster really needs to find some legal reason for getting it back from Cornwall (I realise government lawyers are working over time at the moment trying to find loopholes for other reasons!).

If Cornwall wants to study what happens if you make bus travel free they just have to phone the Welsh government who've been trialing it on long distance routes for a couple of years. Surprisingly they've proved that if you dont charge for something more people use it then if you do. However they were very quick to suspend their scheme once Covid arrived as they didn't want to encourage unnecessary journeys.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Will announce a new contrac matter to the general public, maybe worth posting in an enthusiast group who are interested in Kernow's operations, but a general post on social media only just to announce some more school buses for Y7-11s sounds bit pointless, especially if its still company sensitive
Is this the same as today's news? If so, the Friday date given as the release of the info is dodgier than Dominic Cummings' account of his movements to, from and within Co Durham. :D
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
April the first has passed so I have to assume this is for real. I realise Cornwall likes to be see as not really part of England however this does suggest it's run by people who are not really part of this planet! I'd suggest the challenge of getting all the TfC services to actually run properly would be enough for next week, not dealing with the situation where a scheme to promote bus travel is being launched at the same time as schemes to discourage people from visiting Cornwall and trying to stop people making unnecessary journeys by bus! I realise the money for this is already ring fenced so Cornwall cant spend it any other way, however just throwing it away isn't really an answer and somebody in Westminster really needs to find some legal reason for getting it back from Cornwall (I realise government lawyers are working over time at the moment trying to find loopholes for other reasons!).

If Cornwall wants to study what happens if you make bus travel free they just have to phone the Welsh government who've been trialing it on long distance routes for a couple of years. Surprisingly they've proved that if you dont charge for something more people use it then if you do. However they were very quick to suspend their scheme once Covid arrived as they didn't want to encourage unnecessary journeys.
All Cornwall had to do was to say thanks, but let's just leave it til later in the year (September/October?) to commence. Buses driving past queues of passengers with 'bus full' messages on blinds, but only eight or so on board, will utterly infuriate would-be passengers, including me!
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
All Cornwall had to do was to say thanks, but let's just leave it til later in the year (September/October?) to commence. Buses driving past queues of passengers with 'bus full' messages on blinds, but only eight or so on board, will utterly infuriate would-be passengers, including me!
I wouldn't be surprised if a condition of the grant was to start using it by the end of May, with no flexibility to take into account the current situation. However, it's how it's being used that's astounding to me.
 

MB162435

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2017
Messages
1,259
Location
Penryn
On one hand I want Kernow to sign up, as transport is my biggest cost per month so would save me a fortune, would be annoying if TfC customers were travailing free but Kernow's customers still had to pay

But on the other hand I don't want Kernow to sign up, as would be incredibly frustrating if i couldn't get on the bus to work if it was full up of joyriders having a free day out

In normal times I would be 100% for the scheme, but now I'm not so sure
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
I wouldn't be surprised if a condition of the grant was to start using it by the end of May, with no flexibility to take into account the current situation. However, it's how it's being used that's astounding to me.

This is entirely my own suspicion, but the money probably has to start being used by 1 June, from talking to a TfC employee today the first fare pilot meeting happened on Wednesday or Thursday last week. His opinion was they were Lacking time to implement a scheme with lower fares (due to failure to bring it to discussion sooner), the free thing is a panic To start spending money On time whilst they iron out the proposed lower fare scheme
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
On one hand I want Kernow to sign up, as transport is my biggest cost per month so would save me a fortune, would be annoying if TfC customers were travailing free but Kernow's customers still had to pay

But on the other hand I don't want Kernow to sign up, as would be incredibly frustrating if i couldn't get on the bus to work if it was full up of joyriders having a free day out

In normal times I would be 100% for the scheme, but now I'm not so sure

Personal view if TfC signup it would be financial suicide for FK not to sign up and vice versa.
People would take the 93/85 rather than spend £7.50 return on the 91/87 for example between Newquay and Truro. Most would take a longer journey if it’s free.
If it’s going to attract higher passengers, it may well in normal circumstances have given freedom to increase frequency and trial new routes, but at the moment i am not sure
 

MB162435

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2017
Messages
1,259
Location
Penryn
Personal view if TfC signup it would be financial suicide for FK not to sign up and vice versa.
People would take the 93/85 rather than spend £7.50 return on the 91/87 for example between Newquay and Truro. Most would take a longer journey if it’s free.
If it’s going to attract higher passengers, it may well in normal circumstances have given freedom to increase frequency and trial new routes, but at the moment i am not sure
Can't see it making Kernow any less profitable than it currently is, won't matter who has the most passengers until the virus is gone and normal rivalry possibly could return, if it ever does

As you say they would still loose money by not signing up by potentially losing their customers to TfC, could also make TfC look the better operator if they are not careful by not letting their customers save money, TfC are technically trialling their new routes and increasing frequencies from around that time,

Would be brave of Kernow to launch any of their new commercial routes during the pandemic , but if passenger numbers get to a point that all of their buses are full, maybe they won't have much option to increase frequencies on existing routes to cater for everyone
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Now that all the shops are allowed to open from 15th June, maybe FK could lay on the old X18 from PZ to Truro again? (with two out of three seats allocated to shopping bags)
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
Can't find official confirmation but understand the free fare trial has been postponed
Perhaps sanity has prevailed and the DfT have decided that the grant doesn't now have to start being used by the end of May.
 

Stan Drews

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2013
Messages
1,569
Perhaps sanity has prevailed and the DfT have decided that the grant doesn't now have to start being used by the end of May.
...or you can’t have much of a free fare trial if no bus operators signed up for it!
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
...or you can’t have much of a free fare trial if no bus operators signed up for it!
Quite possibly!

The whole thing was is nuts anyway and hopefully CC will be able to thrash out something sensible with the operators later in the year in respect of its low fares funding grant.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Not a scrap on this in local media, so if there's going to be free travel it won't be known to the public and the council won't have to reimburse anything to the operator(s). Must have been dreamed up by Matt Hancock! Meanwhile CC reintroduce all parking charges and restrictions from Monday, just to encourage the public out to visit the remaining shops when they reopen in two weeks! :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top