freedom pass & add on must train stop at boundary station

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cjp

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Header says it all really.
I have a Freedom Pass and I am travelling on Chiltern beyond the boundary.
I can save few pounds by buying a ticket from the boundary station but only slow trains stop there.

Does the Freedom pass equate to a season so I can hop on a fast train ex Marylebone that does not stop at the boundary station ?
 
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transportphoto

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Buy a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 (or 9 as a case may be) - what is the precise journey you are making?

TP
 

OwlMan

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Thats fine the freedom pass is considered to be an off-peak season ticket see quote from The Manual below

The Manual
Extension Tickets for journeys starting from stations within the Concessionary Travel area:


It should be especially noted that a freedom pass is considered to be an ‘off-peak’ season ticket and through journeys to and from stations outside the Concessionary Travel area are permitted as follows:

  • Upon pre-purchase of the appropriate single or return ticket, which should be either
a) a Travelcard Excess Fare from ‘Boundary Zone 6’,( see Note 1) or
b) a point to point ticket from the outermost station in Zone 6 to destinations where a Travelcard Excess Fare is either not available, or is priced higher (see Note 1), or
c) a ‘point-to-point’ ticket from Amersham, Dartford, Swanley, Watford Junction (see Note 2)
Note 1: A Freedom Pass used in combination with either a Travelcard Excess Fare or a ‘point-to-point’ ticket is only valid for a throughout journey NOT stopping at the station where the passenger changes from their Freedom Pass to a point-to-point ticket, when travel is on the services of a participating Train Company
 

MarkyMarkD

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I wasn't aware of the Dartford etc. extension to the standard travelcard zones for freedom pass purposes, and my great-uncle-in-law pointed it out to me this week (which was rather embarrassing as I thought I knew what I was talking about re. boundary zone extensions). D'oh!
 
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wintonian

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Thats fine the freedom pass is considered to be an off-peak season ticket see quote from The Manual below
Well that contridicts the NRCoC.

Can the manual override the NRCoC?

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority)
or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not. You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10). If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid. For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:


(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.
 

34D

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Does the Freedom pass equate to a season so I can hop on a fast train ex Marylebone that does not stop at the boundary station ?
For Chiltern, yes, I agree that you may travel on a non-stop train with your freedom pass and a boundary zone 6 (or 9 if it exists) to your destination.

However, note that this isn't the case for all TOCs http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/freedompass/whenwhere/rail.htm

I wasn't aware of the Dartford etc. extension to the standard travelcard zones, and my great-uncle-in-law pointed it out to me this week (which was rather embarrassing as I thought I knew what I was talking about re. boundary zone extensions). D'oh!
Dartford isn't in the zones is it? It has however been a place the freedom pass can be used free on rail for a while.

Well that contridicts the NRCoC.

Can the manual override the NRCoC?
Very interesting point. The freedom pass is after all issued by London Councils (link above)!

I'd say that the manual or the TfL or the London Councils website CAN overrule NRCOC if they give more rights to the passenger but not less. Comments from others?
 

MarkyMarkD

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I don't agree with your last point. If TfL or the London Councils agree a widening to the privileges their pensioners get, compared to those in other parts of the UK, and fund it, that's fine, but NRCOC should be amended to be correct.

It isn't good enough for the councils or TfL to publish conflicting and inconsistent guidance whilst NRCOC remains unchanged.
 

wintonian

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If it gives passengers more rights, absolutely! :)
You would say that. :p

However the concessionary legislation specifically says that PTE's are able to extend the provisions beyond what is in the act to give people more rights. Why can't the NRCoC say something like; sometime TOC's may give you more rights than are contained in these conditions which they are free to do and any prohibition here will not apply?

I can just see some 'knowledgeable' know it all guard/ barrier person pointing someone with a Freedom pass to the NRCoC saying this isn't valid.
 

MarkyMarkD

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Exactly what I mean. If there are to be regional exceptions, NRCOC should allow this. Anywhere there is conflict between different "official" sources is a potential source of confusion for staff who are sometimes (definitely not always, in case any TOC staff think I mean that) less-than-well-trained.
 

bignosemac

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Why can't the NRCoC say something like; sometime TOC's may give you more rights than are contained in these conditions which they are free to do and any prohibition here will not apply?
It does. In the introduction.

These Conditions set out your rights and any restrictions to those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out in these Conditions and, if they do so, these may be found in each Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter or other publications. Details of where you can find this information will be available when you buy your ticket. The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so. These Conditions set out the minimum level of rights you are entitled to expect.
 

Clip

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But to go off on a tangent a little - What about TfL passes? can you do the same with them as you would if you held a valid TC as a paying passenger.

In all honesty its not something i have looked at nor come across..
 

MarkyMarkD

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It does. In the introduction.
But it's awful practice to have wording in NRCOC which says that. A customer shouldn't have to go and check lots of different documents - NRCOC should give them the clear terms of their contract with the rail operators.

The London freedom pass affects so many TOCs that any exception applicable to all of them, in respect of that one pass, should be properly documented in NRCOC.
 

wintonian

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But it's awful practice to have wording in NRCOC which says that. A customer shouldn't have to go and check lots of different documents - NRCOC should give them the clear terms of their contract with the rail operators.

The London freedom pass affects so many TOCs that any exception applicable to all of them, in respect of that one pass, should be properly documented in NRCOC.
You have a point, but that would then be giving favourable terms to TfL/ London Councils which could be seen to discriminate against other TCA's.

Unless you included all passed issued under the concessionary travel legislation, where bilatral arrangements with TOC's and TCA's exist.

Edit change PTE to TCA
 
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John @ home

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There is no contradiction. Transport for London is neither a Passenger Transport Executive nor a Local Authority.
 

47519

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Is there a distinction between a ticket from “boundary zone 6” and a ticket from the boundary station? The ticket machines at Victoria offer tickets from other stations but not, as far as I can see, from Boundary zone 6. Would a ticket from Swanley to Rochester from a machine be just as valid as a Boundary zone 6 to Rochester ticket from the ticket office on a train not stopping at Swanley?

Also, I assume that a combination of a freedom pass and a Kent Rover ticket is only valid on a train stopping at Swanley. Is this correct please
 

island

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Is there a distinction between a ticket from “boundary zone 6” and a ticket from the boundary station? The ticket machines at Victoria offer tickets from other stations but not, as far as I can see, from Boundary zone 6. Would a ticket from Swanley to Rochester from a machine be just as valid as a Boundary zone 6 to Rochester ticket from the ticket office on a train not stopping at Swanley?

Also, I assume that a combination of a freedom pass and a Kent Rover ticket is only valid on a train stopping at Swanley. Is this correct please
A boundary zone ticket can be used in conjunction with a day travelcard (or a lesser-spotted 3-day one) on a fast train, but a ticket from a named station cannot.
 

wintonian

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There is no contradiction. Transport for London is neither a Passenger Transport Executive nor a Local Authority.
Sorry I ment 'Travel Concession Authorities' (TCA's) not PTE's, TCA's issue concessionary travel passes and the London boroughs are defined as TCA's who are also local authorities, as such I belive there is a contradiction.
 

MarkyMarkD

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A boundary zone ticket can be used in conjunction with a day travelcard (or a lesser-spotted 3-day one) on a fast train, but a ticket from a named station cannot.
But for freedom passes, as OwlMan has posted, that rule doesn't apply in respect of the "odd" extra stations because BZ tickets cannot be used as they don't exist as the stations are already beyond the BZ!
 

cjp

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A boundary zone ticket can be used in conjunction with a day travelcard (or a lesser-spotted 3-day one) on a fast train, but a ticket from a named station cannot.
You are contradicting Owlman's quote from the Manual which was

Note 1: A Freedom Pass used in combination with either a Travelcard Excess Fare or a ‘point-to-point’ ticket is only valid for a throughout journey NOT stopping at the station where the passenger changes from their Freedom Pass to a point-to-point ticket, when travel is on the services of a participating Train Company

My original question was about a Freedom Pass and just such a point to point ticket

Such a combination today saved me £3.25 which over the year will amount to over a one hundred pounds.
 

BigVince76

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I have just moved to Barnehurst and received my Freedom Pass last week so aI am a bit new to all this. It is good to know that Dartford is covered.

I have a couple of questions though.

I will have to travel to Northampton next weekend with my girlfriend. I have a Disabled Railcard and of course my freedom pass.
Now I can get all the way to Watford Junction with the FP, and then buy a ticket to Northampton but what is the cheapest thing to do for two of us? Just a straight ticket from Barnehurst with the rail card? Would I be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for my girlfriend and I use my FP, then buy both of us tickets from Watford? It's all a little confusing!
 

bb21

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You are contradicting Owlman's quote from the Manual which was
...
He is not contradicting the quotes. He is referring to the usage of a Day travelcard combined with another ticket.
 

wintonian

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I have just moved to Barnehurst and received my Freedom Pass last week so aI am a bit new to all this. It is good to know that Dartford is covered.

I have a couple of questions though.

I will have to travel to Northampton next weekend with my girlfriend. I have a Disabled Railcard and of course my freedom pass.
Now I can get all the way to Watford Junction with the FP, and then buy a ticket to Northampton but what is the cheapest thing to do for two of us? Just a straight ticket from Barnehurst with the rail card? Would I be able to buy a railcard discounted ticket for my girlfriend and I use my FP, then buy both of us tickets from Watford? It's all a little confusing!
As long as you are with your railcard and the accompanying adult is with you then you do not need to be traveling on a ticket discounted by the railcard as far as I am aware.

Just to complicate matters for you :) if you are using an Oyster card the your companion can get a child rate off-peak travelcard to use which may or may not be cheaper for the 2 of you, see here.

Disabled Persons Railcard

If you buy a Disabled Persons Railcard you can set the discount entitlement on a standard adult Oyster card to get 34 per cent discount on:

Off-peak pay as you go single fares for journeys on Tube, DLR, London Overground and National Rail services in London
The off-peak daily price cap for journeys on Tube, DLR, London Overground and National Rail services in London

You can also buy discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcards at anytime on weekends, Public Holidays and after 09:30 on Monday to Friday.

You can also get discounted travel for one adult travelling with you for the whole journey - they can buy a child-rate Zone 1-6 Off-Peak Day Travelcard for £3.20.

NOTE: You must use your Disabled Persons Railcard with a valid ticket or Oyster card with the Railcard discount entitlement to travel. If you also have a Disabled person's Freedom Pass you cannot use the Disabled Persons Railcard to buy a discounted ticket for your companion, and then use your Freedom Pass to travel
.
I have deliberately highlighted the bit at the bottom.

As for whats cheapest for you on this trip, I have no idea I'm afraid, beyond throwing this into the mixand making you aware in case it is usefull some other time.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Is there a distinction between a ticket from “boundary zone 6” and a ticket from the boundary station? The ticket machines at Victoria offer tickets from other stations but not, as far as I can see, from Boundary zone 6. Would a ticket from Swanley to Rochester from a machine be just as valid as a Boundary zone 6 to Rochester ticket from the ticket office on a train not stopping at Swanley?

Also, I assume that a combination of a freedom pass and a Kent Rover ticket is only valid on a train stopping at Swanley. Is this correct please
A boundary zone fare is an extension to a Travelcard (or London Freedom pass), A ticket from a station is a seperate ticket and follows the rules given in NRCoC Condition 19.

If you bought a ticket from a machine to extend a Travelcard, a Guard/TM/RPI could show discretion if the ticket is of equal value or higher than the boundary zone fare. This is not a right for Travelcard holders however.

A Freedom pass and Kent rover would be treated as two tickets under Condition 19.

You are contradicting Owlman's quote from the Manual.....
Did you even read who the post was responding to and the point made in the post?
 
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