Friend being prosecuted for allegedly attempting to use husband's Season ticket (but did not use it)

[Ginger40]

Hi,
I'm a newbie here. Heard worrying news from a friend about a court summons by London Midland. Friend works in Bedford but had a work meeting in London on said morning. Her husband who recently become a London train commuter gave her his Season/monthly ticket as he was working from home that day to save her queuing up.
Friend arrives at station and at the barrier walks up to ticket inspector to ask 'can I use this ticket' and everything blows up as she was now detained by collector for fraudulent use of another's ticket and fare evasion.
Note...
She hadn't used ticket yet
She hadn't crossed barrier
She had actually gone to ask if it was alright
She went on to buy a ticket (which was going to be paid for by her Employer anyway), but has now received a court summons in the post.

I feel she has a strong case for court but the whole idea of possible conviction and a criminal record has her extremely worried. She engaged a lawyer but even he gives her no hope as he says court proceedings can drag on, cost her money and it's not weighted in her favor. He has advised an out of court settlement.
So far this has cost her
A new season's ticket for her husband as his
barely used ticket was seized.
Lawyer's fees and potential settlement fees.

Is that really her best option? Is there another form of appeal?

 

[cuccir]

Hello!

The legislation for ticketing includes 'attempts' to travel without a ticket or, in this case, with someone else's ticket. So the question is whether or not the railway company could argue in court that this counted as an attempt to travel.

A lot of it might hinge on the fine detail. For example: where in the station did the encounter happen? Was your friend asked any questions about what she would have done if she had not encountered staff on the day? This latter is particularly important - if she was asked that and her reply at all suggested that she'd have travelled with the season ticket, then it would be an easy conviction. Another important question is what legislation she is being charged under? It will likely either be a Byelaw or the Regulation of the Railways Act. If it's the latter, your friend will need to consider that any conviction would create a criminal record that would appear on future DBS checks. Your friend should also consider that London Midland also face costs when going to court and therefore if they've decided that it's worth their while to proceed, they have clearly evaluated that they have evidence to get a conviction. And lawyer's fees need to come into consideration too.

On those grounds, seeking an out of court settlement might well be the right thing to do. If your friend has received legal advice to that effect then that's important to consider too: the lawyer will have his/her reasons for offering that advice. That all said, this case (from what you've told us so far) does seem potentially contestable, depending on the answers to those questions above.

So this all comes down to the risk that your friend is willing to accept: going to court contains the chance of walking away without a conviction, but also the chance of getting a criminal record and spending more money. An out of court settlement ends it now. In this case, the outcome in court may well be dependent on the nuances of how your friend acted and responded to questioning on the day, as well as on her and London Midland's lawyers' abilities and arguments. To that end, it would be wrong to give definitive advice via third hand reporting on an internet forum, but I'm sure we can try and answer further questions. You might want to direct your friend to this thread if she has further queries.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

It's very unlikely we'll know anything that a suitably experienced lawyer doesn't, so your friend's easiest option is to take the lawyer's advice. But if your friend has the time, the money and the determination to fight this point, they could do - but with no guarantee of winning.

Your friend would do well to ask themselves
- is the account that they have given the truth? And what would a neutral observer have made of how they behaved at the station? This is not to suggest that your friend was lying - but only they know what they were thinking: everyone else (the railway staff for example) need to draw conclusions from what your friend did. So your friend may have thought they were just going to check on the validity of the ticket - but if they did this by joining a queue to get on to the platform, rather than by asking at the ticket office (if there was one) or some other member of railway staff (if there were any) then to an observer, this would have looked a lot like trying to access the platform with (as your friend now knows) an invalid ticket rather than trying to ask a question. And this view could be reinforced if the discussion was started by the ticket collector (Could I just look more closely at your ticket please?) rather than by your friend (This is my husband's season ticket - he's not using it today so is it OK for me to use it?).
- have they talked face to face to the lawyer? If this case goes to court, then a lot could depend on whether your friend came across as a plausible witness. In practice, how your friend presented herself to the lawyer would be a dry run for how she presented herself in court. So if your friend has only been in touch with the lawyer by phone or (in particular) by email, the lawyer hasn't had a chance to take a view of how well she will appear in court.
- how well will your friend take it if they lose? Going to court is not cheap, even if you win. I don't think (and someone will be along shortly to put me right if I'm wrong) there is any guarantee of getting your costs back from the other side. If you lose, you have to pay your costs and (very probably) a fine, compensation, court costs and the other side's costs. There's also the stress of going through the court process, and if the successful prosecution was under the Regulation of Railways Act then there will be a black mark on your DBS record (your 'police record').

To a large extent, it comes down to what is most important to your friend, and their appetite for risk. The only way to finish this with their reputation completely unsullied is by going to court - but that will cost money, and could end with a conviction (which is a publicly known fact - anyone can turn up to court proceedings, and local papers sometimes do). Alternatively, as your friend's lawyer has recommended, the whole thing may be settled out of court, which will definitely cost money. But the only people who will know will be the train company's legal department, your friend, and maybe her husband and you. Neither answer is perfect. It's for your friend to decide which is least worst.

 

[najaB]

Is that really her best option? Is there another form of appeal?

The Regulation of Railways Act says:

If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

It's pretty clear that your friend didn't pay their fare, the only case that they could make is that they didn't actually attempt to travel. I'm not confident that they would be successful so seeking a settlement is probably the better course of action.

 

[matt_world2004]

Does asking if you can travel on this ticket constitute an attempt to travel , I would say probably not. This sounds like something has been lost in translation somewhere.

 

[londonboi198o5]

Does asking if you can travel on this ticket constitute an attempt to travel , I would say probably not. This sounds like something has been lost in translation somewhere.

My thoughts as well.

Some thing is missing from the story.

 

[Master29]

Does asking if you can travel on this ticket constitute an attempt to travel , I would say probably not. This sounds like something has been lost in translation somewhere.

It possibly does but then again could equally be an innocent question. Unless we here from the OP about what actually happened this is irrelevant.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does asking if you can travel on this ticket constitute an attempt to travel , I would say probably not. This sounds like something has been lost in translation somewhere.

Depends entirely on the context in which the question was asked. We need more details from the OP.

 

[boxy321]

Her husband who recently become a London train commuter gave her his Season/monthly ticket as he was working from home that day to save her queuing up.

I think this is what London Midland have picked up on. They simply don't believe that if the barriers weren't manned the OP would not have gone straight through and got away with it. The husband probably discovered that on a normal commute it would be easy to slip through on the season ticket and on the day the OP's friend got cold feet at the station.

I would say settle out of court and remind people that sharing season tickets is a very risky business. Mine has a photocard which removes all doubt and temptation. I think they all should.

 

[A0wen]

There's a few things with this that make so little sense...

Firstly: "Friend works in Bedford but had a work meeting in London on said morning. "

"She went on to buy a ticket (which was going to be paid for by her Employer anyway),"

So why even try to use husband's season ticket? It's not like she would have been out of pocket buying a ticket for use - and IF, and it's a big IF the concern was about the time to buy a ticket in the morning, there's a really easy answer, you buy the ticket online the night before and collect at the station from the ticket vending machine.

I notice it's involving London Midland - which suggests the journey wasn't from Bedford but instead somewhere on the WCML - but LM as was, WMR now, quite often have ticket checks going on at all the main stations.

Frankly, no sympathy. It was trying to use a ticket she had no right to be using. Season tickets are sold to an individual for that individual to use, not to just pass around to whoever they see fit.

 

[rdwarr]

There's a few things with this that make so little sense...

Firstly: "Friend works in Bedford but had a work meeting in London on said morning. "

"She went on to buy a ticket (which was going to be paid for by her Employer anyway),"

So why even try to use husband's season ticket? It's not like she would have been out of pocket buying a ticket for use - and IF, and it's a big IF the concern was about the time to buy a ticket in the morning, there's a really easy answer, you buy the ticket online the night before and collect at the station from the ticket vending machine.

I notice it's involving London Midland - which suggests the journey wasn't from Bedford but instead somewhere on the WCML - but LM as was, WMR now, quite often have ticket checks going on at all the main stations.

Frankly, no sympathy. It was trying to use a ticket she had no right to be using. Season tickets are sold to an individual for that individual to use, not to just pass around to whoever they see fit.

I think you're making too many assumptions which may be fuelling your problems making sense of the account. For example:

• It's quite possible to have "work meetings" at locations other than your place of work (e.g. client sites).
• It was not stated that the journey was from Bedford.
• It has not been categorically proven that she was trying to use the ticket - she may well have been asking if she was allowed to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it possible it was rejected by the barrier for some reason and then she asked the question having attempted to use it already?

I don't know how WMT are developing in this way, but LM were not a prosecution-happy TOC, generally preferring Penalty Fares even in cases of obvious and wilful evasion, and rarely even bothering with those in "genuine mistake" cases for which they are meant to exist. This being the case, something is quite possibly missing from the story.

 

[falcon]

Hi,
I'm a newbie here. Heard worrying news from a friend about a court summons by London Midland. Friend works in Bedford but had a work meeting in London on said morning. Her husband who recently become a London train commuter gave her his Season/monthly ticket as he was working from home that day to save her queuing up.
Friend arrives at station and at the barrier walks up to ticket inspector to ask 'can I use this ticket' and everything blows up as she was now detained by collector for fraudulent use of another's ticket and fare evasion.
Note...
She hadn't used ticket yet
She hadn't crossed barrier
She had actually gone to ask if it was alright
She went on to buy a ticket (which was going to be paid for by her Employer anyway), but has now received a court summons in the post.

I feel she has a strong case for court but the whole idea of possible conviction and a criminal record has her extremely worried. She engaged a lawyer but even he gives her no hope as he says court proceedings can drag on, cost her money and it's not weighted in her favor. He has advised an out of court settlement.
So far this has cost her
A new season's ticket for her husband as his
barely used ticket was seized.
Lawyer's fees and potential settlement fees.

Is that really her best option? Is there another form of appeal?

Before anyone advises. What offence is stated on the summons of this friend. We need to know that in order to advice properly.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Season Tickets come with the holders name printed on them and the reference number of the accompanying photocard. Anyone with an ounce of common sense who looks at one and reads it can deduce that there probably not going to be transferable.

Another thing if the OP is still looking at the thread to think about. Will the cctv footage corroborate the story the OP Friends Wife has given? We all like to paint ourselves in a good light and try give a version of events that backs our point of view but will the cctv back it up?
The last thing you want is to go to court and say Mrs Op Friend did X and the Prosecution turn around and say heres footage of Mrs OP Friends Wife doing Y.........

Northern have announced that they will be verifying Penalty Fare appeals using CCTV footage. Claims of TVM's not working or unusually large queues at unstaffed stations will be checked out. CCTV seems to be coming more and more inot ticketing disputes..

 

[WelshBluebird]

Claims of TVM's not working

Is the CCTV footage that clear to actually be able to tell that or not? I seriously doubt it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the CCTV footage that clear to actually be able to tell that or not? I seriously doubt it!

You would clearly be able to see other people, before and after the accused, appearing to purchase and collect tickets from the TVM and walk away with them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You would clearly be able to see other people, before and after the accused, appearing to purchase and collect tickets from the TVM and walk away with them.

But that wouldn't prove it didn't work for a particular person though? Sure you may be able to verify that the person did or did not attempt to use the machine (or more specifically, look like they attempted to use it), but actually verify that it did not work at that moment (knowing that some hardware / software issues can be intermittent)? I am not so sure! Not saying it isn't a good idea mind you (it is, and I am kind of surprised it isn't used already), just that its an easy trap to fall into where the footage may not tell the entire story so I hope any ToC thinking of doing that will be a bit careful in how they use it!

 

[Haywain]

efore anyone advises. What offence is stated on the summons of this friend. We need to know that in order to advice properly.

Before we can advise properly we need the "friend" to join the discussion, rather than the OP.

Is the CCTV footage that clear to actually be able to tell that or not? I seriously doubt it!

CCTV is not necessary to establish that a TVM was or was not working at a specific time, at least in the case of the Parkeon TVMs that Northern are increasingly equipped with.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I mentioned the in increased usage of cctv in fares disputes as it seems a hot topic at the moment - i think Northern have put i in their press releases about the roll out of Penalty Fares.

Whilst the Cameras cant tell if a machine is working at a particular moment in time, the body language of people attempting to use is a good clue. Its use is designed to catch out the blatant liars - "the TVM was broke mate" when theirs footage of other folk buying from it an no reported fault or "there was a big queue mate" when there was none. "I got there 4 minutes before the train was due and there were people using it the whole time" when hes seen with his mates on the platform 15 minutes before the train was due etc

Recently in South Wales a barrier station for some reason was not manned during its normal hours of operation , the Booking Office at the station felt compelled to send out an e mail stating that people were just walking past the Booking Office (and TVM's) straight onto the platforms. Despite the barriers being there for several years Shwni defaulted to "pay when challenged" mode.

 

[Nick66]

Season tickets are sold to an individual for that individual to use, not to just pass around to whoever they see fit.

Interesting on two fronts. Firstly, I am aware that in certain countries, Germany for certain, this is not the case and not only are tickets transferable but can also be used by more than one person off-peak, I once remember working late at our German office and went back to the hotel with a colleague using his ticket, and secondly what is the situation with non-photocards such as Oyster Cards? I have a Travelcard on my Oyster, if my wife wanted to use it could she? Gut feeling says no, but I’m sure multiple people could make use of daily capping on PAYG.

Apologies if I’m going slightly off-topic

 

[najaB]

I have a Travelcard on my Oyster, if my wife wanted to use it could she? Gut feeling says no, but I’m sure multiple people could make use of daily capping on PAYG.

Correct and correct. If it's a registered card then it can only be used by the registered owner. An unregistered card with PAYG credit can be used by anyone.

 

[Nick66]

Thanks for the confirmation. I’ve never been asked for ID at a ticket check but I’m sure if a “Mrs” had a card in the name of a “Mr” it would register, or are RPIs just trained to recognise the actions of people who are doing something they shouldn’t? I’m always keen to find ways to reduce costs, but, as I always say to my children, what isn’t right can’t be done.

 

[MikeWh]

Correct and correct. If it's a registered card then it can only be used by the registered owner. An unregistered card with PAYG credit can be used by anyone.

Incorrect. Whether the card is registered or not makes no difference. If the Oyster has a travelcard or discount entitlement loaded then it cannot be shared, if it is using PAYG then it can. You don't need to resister a card to put a weekly travelcard on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting on two fronts. Firstly, I am aware that in certain countries, Germany for certain, this is not the case and not only are tickets transferable but can also be used by more than one person off-peak, I once remember working late at our German office and went back to the hotel with a colleague using his ticket, and secondly what is the situation with non-photocards such as Oyster Cards? I have a Travelcard on my Oyster, if my wife wanted to use it could she? Gut feeling says no, but I’m sure multiple people could make use of daily capping on PAYG.

Apologies if I’m going slightly off-topic

UK bus season tickets are de-facto transferrable, and some bus companies encourage their use in this way.

 

[najaB]

Incorrect. Whether the card is registered or not makes no difference. If the Oyster has a travelcard or discount entitlement loaded then it cannot be shared, if it is using PAYG then it can. You don't need to resister a card to put a weekly travelcard on it.

D'oh, that's what I meant to say - if it's registered or has a product on it (e.g. travelcard). Thanks for the correction.

 

[matt_world2004]

My family use one oyster account for all our oyster cards does that mean my sister is at risk of prosecution for loading a travelcard onto the oyster card because the oyster card is technically in my name.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My family use one oyster account for all our oyster cards does that mean my sister is at risk of prosecution for loading a travelcard onto the oyster card because the oyster card is technically in my name.

Not sure, though provided the one with a season ticket is not passed around I doubt it would get very far.

 

[najaB]

My family use one oyster account for all our oyster cards does that mean my sister is at risk of prosecution for loading a travelcard onto the oyster card because the oyster card is technically in my name.

Provided she's the only one who ever uses it, then she'll be fine - you're allowed to buy a travelcard for someone else to use.

 

[Warwick]

Seems a bit of a rum do. Putting aside the "tickets cannot/are not transferrable rule" - which is obviously there to stop a person buying a railcard discounted ticket and letting an un-entitled person use it - it seems that a person using another person's season ticket presents no threat to revenue. After all, the ticket has been paid for and the railway has got it's income as two people cannot travel at the same time utilising one ticket.
Going back to the original post, the person has stated that they made no attempt to use the ticket but asked that if it may be used. If that is factual then the railway's potential prosecution of that person is a farce and - if what has been said is factual - going to be a waste of the court's and railway clerk's time as no attempt was made to use the ticket, merely an enquiry to ascertain if it may be used.

 

[transmanche]

it seems that a person using another person's season ticket presents no threat to revenue. After all, the ticket has been paid for and the railway has got it's income as two people cannot travel at the same time utilising one ticket

However it threatens the economics of the whole season ticket system.

Season tickets are sold on the basis that they will be used by one person. On the railway that will generally be for ten single journeys a week. Some tickets will be used more often, but the mode average will be ten.

If you allow use by more than one person, the average number of single journeys per ticket will increase - and thus prices will have to increase too.

(cf a TfL weekly bus pass which costs slightly more than 16 single journeys, which shows that the mode average must be a lot higher than ten single journeys per week.)