Front line staff: are you worried about job security?

[Steve Laird]

No worries, BUT....it was the DfT so who knows what they really meant and it would be very odd for the government not to want to reduce operating costs (they might not want to start that fight yet.....)

True politically would be damaging but let's face it they've stumbled from one disaster to the next so who knows

 

[Starmill]

Staff aren’t a capital cost, they are an operating cost.
In this instance I wouldn’t be totally sure if the DfT mean the cost of building and buying stuff or the cost of borrowing the money, possibly NRs massive debt???

The statement looks to me like it's using weasel words. Staff, and their knowledge, are human capital, like the railway track itself is physical capital. It's labour that's the current cost.

The one thing they aren't going to do is release a statement saying that current staff costs are unaffordable, despite the truth of the point.

 

[theironroad]

There's a bit of a dilemma with bearing down on capital costs, unless the govt believe the excessive bit is they are inflated.

Capital intensive projects such as re-opening lines, east west rail, electrification etc are all projects that would be good for the economy and employment in general if the skills are available, but these are the sort of projects that can be shelved and savings curtailed.

I'd imagine day to day maintenance is operating costs, but massive renewal projects and new signalling can be put back if the kit is not life expired and deemed ok to squeeze some more life out of the asset.

 

[Meerkat]

There's a bit of a dilemma with bearing down on capital costs, unless the govt believe the excessive bit is they are inflated.

Capital intensive projects such as re-opening lines, east west rail, electrification etc are all projects that would be good for the economy and employment in general if the skills are available, but these are the sort of projects that can be shelved and savings curtailed.

I'd imagine day to day maintenance is operating costs, but massive renewal projects and new signalling can be put back if the kit is not life expired and deemed ok to squeeze some more life out of the asset.

Remind me what happened to maintenance levels last time government totally controlled the railways.....

 

[8rwg]

The statement looks to me like it's using weasel words. Staff, and their knowledge, are human capital, like the railway track itself is physical capital. It's labour that's the current cost.

The one thing they aren't going to do is release a statement saying that current staff costs are unaffordable, despite the truth of the point.

yes the whole statement was vague. It’s really anyone’s guess.
But I’m not filled with confidence

not sure if I’d rather be employed by DfT or a TOC tbh

 

[tracksider]

Sorry to bump this thread, but after almost two years of applying/waiting I'm finally due to start training as a guard on a regional line in just over a month and I'm getting increasingly worried due to the second wave and the briefings about service cuts we're starting to see in the press. Even if my line hasn't seen a catastrophic collapse in travel, I'm worried that guards who are no longer needed elsewhere could get transferred, and the TOC decides they don't need us new recruits anymore. Do any of you have any thoughts about what kind of odds I might be dealing with here? I have to relocate for this job, and I've obviously had to give notice to my current job already too, so the stakes are really high.

 

[theironroad]

Sorry to bump this thread, but after almost two years of applying/waiting I'm finally due to start training as a guard on a regional line in just over a month and I'm getting increasingly worried due to the second wave and the briefings about service cuts we're starting to see in the press. Even if my line hasn't seen a catastrophic collapse in travel, I'm worried that guards who are no longer needed elsewhere could get transferred, and the TOC decides they don't need us new recruits anymore. Do any of you have any thoughts about what kind of odds I might be dealing with here? I have to relocate for this job, and I've obviously had to give notice to my current job already too, so the stakes are really high.

No one really knows what the future will bring right now and stuff in the press isn't always true.

Some regional lines and the trains on them may not be suitable for operation without a guard or may need large capital investment to make it happen which favours the job.

Obviously don't know what you're giving up to make the move and how easy it would be to return but it's unlikely the TOC would recruit now if they didn't think there was a future in the short to medium term.

Not an easy decision but could be good experience if you're new to the railways.

 

[tracksider]

Some regional lines and the trains on them may not be suitable for operation without a guard or may need large capital investment to make it happen which favours the job.

Thanks. I'm not so worried about DOO, although I totally appreciate this is a big worry for others. I'm hoping that by the time it's considered for my patch I'd have the experience to transfer to other things. My concern is more that I won't even get to start in the first place! Thinking of the folks who never got to start at Grand Central - it must be an awful time for them. People say open access is different, but it seems very plausible that at any moment the Govt could decide that it's unsustainable to pay billions for fresh air to be carried around everyday with no end of the crisis in sight.

 

[mstrwvr]

I'm in a similar position - halfway through the application process for Trainee Conductor for TFW. If I am lucky enough to get it, it would be a career change for me, and there's so much uncertainty over everything at the moment, you can't help but worry about it.

On the one hand, you can only hope that the people in charge would be recruiting at the moment if they weren't absolutely sure they needed people. On the other hand, being alive in Britain in 2020 doesn't give you a great deal of confidence that the people in charge of things know what they are doing.

In any case, it seems realistic that there will be a long delay on start dates.

 

[theironroad]

Thanks. I'm not so worried about DOO, although I totally appreciate this is a big worry for others. I'm hoping that by the time it's considered for my patch I'd have the experience to transfer to other things. My concern is more that I won't even get to start in the first place! Thinking of the folks who never got to start at Grand Central - it must be an awful time for them. People say open access is different, but it seems very plausible that at any moment the Govt could decide that it's unsustainable to pay billions for fresh air to be carried around everyday with no end of the crisis in sight.

Open access is very different. GC and Hull only have the backing of their parent companies (Arriva and First) . 'Franchised' tocs have the backing of the DfT as has been seen through the EMA and now ERMA schemes to support tocs financially.

We've just had the chancellor announce further measures to support people in jobs and right now I can't see the government, who are essentially telling the tocs how to run the railways, to make loads of people redundant.

You might want to speak/email the TOC you're due to start with and confirm that the start date you have is still solid to reassure you.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Remind me what happened to maintenance levels last time government totally controlled the railways.....

Exactly, my concern is the fat in terms of maintenance and renewal is more or less gone. Any more efficiency saving will cut into an already brittle bone.

Why is when costs have be cut, do people already jump on DOO? It’ll save a tiny amount compared to other aspects of bloated staffing, or is it a jealously thing ? Guards on decent salaries “doing nothing” so sack them all thought process?

There’s plenty of fat to cut away across the industry, but those who can identify that fat won’t vote for Christmas.

 

[mstrwvr]

The wales and borders franchise management keolis amey agreed to conductors staying on their services for the length of the 15yr franchise, the franchise is very ambitious with more services planned

Thank you, I had seen a vague reference to that, but your post reminded me to go off and do some research. Cheers.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Thank you, I had seen a vague reference to that, but your post reminded me to go off and do some research. Cheers.

The conductor assurance is for Mainline “heavy rail” only, NOT the CVL metro network.

 

[387star]

Are the days of inflation busting driver wage rises over ? Less season ticket money rolling in. However unlikely to be driver job losses .

 

[dctraindriver]

Are the days of inflation busting driver wage rises over ? Less season ticket money rolling in. However unlikely to be driver job losses .

Seems to be the consensus amongst a few conversations at present.... however opinions only, nothing at this time to back that theory up.

 

[class ep-09]

Are the days of inflation busting driver wage rises over ? Less season ticket money rolling in. However unlikely to be driver job losses .

I think the above inflation pay rises were ( in most cases) across all grades not just drivers ( level of rise depending on a TOC).

If drivers got their own , additional pay deals / rises, in almost all cases some T&C have been given up .

 

[Coach Carter]

I think the above inflation pay rises were ( in most cases) across all grades not just drivers ( level of rise depending on a TOC).

If drivers got their own , additional pay deals / rises, in almost all cases some T&C have been given up .

The grades have there own annual pay rises each negotiated for them by there unions. At least that’s how it is for drivers and guards. The really big rises are indeed normally in return for a change in T’s and C’s/productivity.

 

[SRH]

i only support nationalisation if the government use it as a temporary opportunity to finally sort out the railways and the unions. Otherwise I am against the state doing anything more than they absolutely must.

this must be a joke

so a member of staff is to support actions that will lead to less jobs and less staff??

amazing stuff

fair enough the unions dig their heels in some times But they are the reason The railway is such a popular career Choice.
I Agree there’s a lot of problems with the railway and the political side but the positives of the unions massively out weigh the negatives

ALL and any railway staff that have managed to be brainwashed away from thinking the unions are of critical importance really need to have a good look at themselves!

And all the other industries that have seen there unions taken away and the impacts this has had...

i am absolutely stunned by some of these comments... THE more jobs for regular folk the better

Are the days of inflation busting driver wage rises over ? Less season ticket money rolling in. However unlikely to be driver job losses .

This??!!!

what does this have to do with potential job losses to all grades??

why would ANY of us want any job losses. Do people have these same issues with white collar jobs and there finances..
human society bewilders me sometimes.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

What have the unions ever done for us?

www.pcs.org.uk

I don’t know if external links are allowed, I’m not ”au fait” with forum rules.

Anyway, a vast majority of workers have gained from union influence in one way or another.

It seems, as usual, some gobby types on here have an axe to grind against railway unions.

Personal grudges? Envy? Frustration?

I’m sure we’ll be enlightened shortly...

 

[SRH]

seems to be one type of person unfortunately. With a specific political angle.

saddening.

We have just seen british gas/British Airways make
there frontline staff redundant then re hire them on far worse contracts without all there perks.. No government interventions on these appauling acts

Yet we have people here making political angles and complaining about unions?? its a joke

i am with the people and want as many jobs as possible

All grades

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Amen to that.

I was in another safety-critical industry prior to this, where the new entrants were placed on different contacts to old-hands, for longer hours / weekend working with shifts for no overtime / much poorer pensions / massively reduced training duration for the same qualification / 0.75 salary comparatively / productivity bonus being reintroduced, when the union had previously fought successfully to have that scheme scrapped and salary being enhanced slightly to appease both management and the union.

All of that bred contempt between the 2 factions. Over some time, the experienced hands were replaced by the newer entrants due to natural wastage and / or disillusionment, mainly due to safety standards being compromised in the name of “productivity”.

It’s now labelled as a modernisation of contracts and working practices.

Cheaper, yes. Safer, no.

The union in question didn’t put up much resistance.

The same kind of compromises to safety standards would definitely be on the cards if some union-bashers on here got their way, in my opinion.

 

[Tom Quinne]

this must be a joke

so a member of staff is to support actions that will lead to less jobs and less staff??

amazing stuff



ALL and any railway staff that have managed to be brainwashed away from thinking the unions are of critical importance really need to have a good look at themselves!

And all the other industries that have seen there unions taken away and the impacts this has had...

i am absolutely stunned by some of these comments... THE more jobs for regular folk the better



This??!!!

what does this have to do with potential job losses to all grades??

why would ANY of us want any job losses. Do people have these same issues with white collar jobs and there finances..
human society bewilders me sometimes.

Exactly, all those ASDA workers told to sign new contracts or find another job probably wish their union was relevant now.

 

[theironroad]

BA Cabin Crew and other BA grades. All had some sort of gun held to their employment head in recent months.

 

[Tom Quinne]

BA Cabin Crew and other BA grades. All had some sort of gun held to their employment head in recent months.

BA cabin crew where well and truly strung up back in 2010ish with the new cabin crew concept on £12k basic !

How can it be right for cabin crew who are safety critical staff be earning less than ONE return 1st class ticket to New Yrok

 

[43066]

ALL and any railway staff that have managed to be brainwashed away from thinking the unions are of critical importance really need to have a good look at themselves!

But if you actually read the post you’ve quoted from you’ll find it doesn’t say that at all. He’s merely pointing out that there are good sides and bad sides.

I’m a union member myself, along with the vast majority of my colleagues, but does that mean we aren’t allowed to voice an opinion and have to be slavishly uncritical at all times?

 

[SRH]

To me. As a train driver who comes from the bottom of the pile in terms of the working class grades and has had pretty much every ****ty job available up to this one..

I am wholeheartedly again ANYBODY who wishes for **Modernisation** (machinery replacing humans) to make things much much worse for us now and in the future.

I will be fighting the cause for the working people all the way!!

The more jobs across all sectors the better

 

[baz962]

BA Cabin Crew and other BA grades. All had some sort of gun held to their employment head in recent months.

To be fair

But if you actually read the post you’ve quoted from you’ll find it doesn’t say that at all. He’s merely pointing out that there are good sides and bad sides.

I’m a union member myself, along with the vast majority of my colleagues, but does that mean we aren’t allowed to voice an opinion and have to be slavishly uncritical at all times?

Exactly this. I'm in a union for the first time in my life and although I wouldn't steer anyone away , I wouldn't brainwash them into believing the union's are all that either. As regards the ba row , the airline came to a quick deal with pilot's over a temporary pay cut , but strung it out over cabin crew and groundstaff and the big chief Cruz took a 33% cut himself. My wife is in unite and they are worse than useless at Luton airport. Union's like aslef and balpa have it easy because you can't train new train driver's and pilot's in a day or two. The job you do has a massive bearing on the union's strength .

To me. As a train driver who comes from the bottom of the pile in terms of the working class grades and has had pretty much every ****ty job available up to this one..

I am wholeheartedly again ANYBODY who wishes for **Modernisation** (machinery replacing humans) to make things much much worse for us now and in the future.

I will be fighting the cause for the working people all the way!!

The more jobs across all sectors the better

I agree with this.

 

[43066]

To me. As a train driver who comes from the bottom of the pile in terms of the working class grades and has had pretty much every ****ty job available up to this one..

I am wholeheartedly again ANYBODY who wishes for **Modernisation** (machinery replacing humans) to make things much much worse for us now and in the future.

I will be fighting the cause for the working people all the way!!

The more jobs across all sectors the better

Yep and that’s fair enough, the union needs to look out for its members. But that also doesn’t mean completely ignoring the fact that things change over time -at the end of the day that’s why none of us drive steam locomotives or have secondmen anymore. The unions will serve their members better by being savvy, and choosing their battles, rather than simply opposing all forms of change for the sake of it.

Exactly this. I'm in a union for the first time in my life and although I wouldn't steer anyone away , I wouldn't brainwash them into believing the union's are all that either. As regards the ba row , the airline came to a quick deal with pilot's over a temporary pay cut , but strung it out over cabin crew and groundstaff and the big chief Cruz took a 33% cut himself. My wife is in unite and they are worse than useless at Luton airport. Union's like aslef and balpa have it easy because you can't train new train driver's and pilot's in a day or two. The job you do has a massive bearing on the union's strength .

Yep, in the end, it all comes down to bargaining power.

 

[theironroad]

To be fair

Exactly this. I'm in a union for the first time in my life and although I wouldn't steer anyone away , I wouldn't brainwash them into believing the union's are all that either. As regards the ba row , the airline came to a quick deal with pilot's over a temporary pay cut , but strung it out over cabin crew and groundstaff and the big chief Cruz took a 33% cut himself. My wife is in unite and they are worse than useless at Luton airport. Union's like aslef and balpa have it easy because you can't train new train driver's and pilot's in a day or two. The job you do has a massive bearing on the union's strength .


I agree with this.

Alas, and I wish it wasn't so but you're correct in saying the type of job (& training and replacement requirements) do have a big bearing on the strength and power a union has.

 

[donpoku]

To be fair

The job you do has a massive bearing on the union's strength .


I agree with this.

This 100%.