Front line staff: are you worried about job security?

[Bletchleyite]

To me. As a train driver who comes from the bottom of the pile in terms of the working class grades and has had pretty much every ****ty job available up to this one..

I am wholeheartedly again ANYBODY who wishes for **Modernisation** (machinery replacing humans) to make things much much worse for us now and in the future.

I will be fighting the cause for the working people all the way!!

The more jobs across all sectors the better

Why can't we have machines replacing humans doing menial stuff, and humans doing things they're good at, i.e. dealing with other humans?

 

[SRH]

my only view is. i want the power to he with the people and i will not support job cuts when the powers that be are still creaming from the top..

i just want to see as many people working as possible... and always will

 

[mstrwvr]

Why can't we have machines replacing humans doing menial stuff, and humans doing things they're good at, i.e. dealing with other humans?

What happens to the humans who are relying on those "menial" jobs for an income?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens to the humans who are relying on those "menial" jobs for an income?

Find them something else to do and help them retrain?

 

[mstrwvr]

Find them something else to do and help them retrain?

That can't go on for long, though? Every job lost to modernisation is one less role for people to do. The same number of people and a diminishing number of roles won't end well, with all the retraining in the world.

The sad fact is that - I can't speak for the railways specifically - is that most modernisation/mechanisation is only introduced because some shareholders somewhere have been convinced that it will be cheaper in the long run to have machines do something than pay people to do it. Cutting wage costs is the goal. Tescos haven't introduced banks of self-service tills because machines are cool, it's so that in the longer term they can employ less cashiers and maximise profits.

 

[dctraindriver]

Why can't we have machines replacing humans doing menial stuff, and humans doing things they're good at, i.e. dealing with other humans?

Define menial....

 

[43066]

Why can't we have machines replacing humans doing menial stuff, and humans doing things they're good at, i.e. dealing with other humans?

Trust me, after years of office based work, there‘s an “old school” joy in only interfacing with machines when at work.

Long may that continue!

Define menial....

Writing Software code, producing accounts and dispensing legal advice are all jobs that will also be replaced by technology in due course.

Find them something else to do and help them retrain?

There’s a significant rump of people who are incapable of doing jobs that require much intellectual effort. What will happen to them?

 

[donpoku]

This is interesting.

As some of you believe modernisation/technological advancement will lead to a decrease in human capital.

But surely this has always been the case since the age of capitalism began. And I'm afraid this will continue long beyond our time with the Pareto Efficiency leading to the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor getting poorer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s a significant rump of people who are incapable of doing jobs that require much intellectual effort. What will happen to them?

If you take out the people who are doing those jobs because they can't find another one or can't train for one (by providing help to do so), then I'd imagine you could provide for that well enough. And there are some things we could do with having back e.g. park keepers - doesn't require much intellectual thought, but does require pride in the job.

 

[mstrwvr]

This is interesting.

As some of you believe modernisation/technological advancement will lead to a decrease in human capital.

But surely this has always been the case since the age of capitalism began. And I'm afraid this will continue long beyond our time with the Pareto Efficiency leading to the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor getting poorer.

You're absolutely right, of course. But that doesn't mean that we should just wave it through as inevitable. We should exercise what little power we have to ensure as many jobs as possible for our communities during our time.

 

[donpoku]

You're absolutely right, of course. But that doesn't mean that we should just wave it through as inevitable. We should exercise what little power we have to ensure as many jobs as possible for our communities during our time.

True indeed. Never underestimate the power of the people, long live the union.

 

[tracksider]

This is a very wide ranging debate and separate topic beyond the thread really, but people at the lower end of the income scale can benefit from mechanisation too in terms of lower costs being passed on. Whether that works on the railways (since there's not much incentive to pass on lower costs when your network is full and there's no competition) is a different debate.

 

[Economist]

To be fair Union's like aslef and balpa have it easy because you can't train new train driver's and pilot's in a day or two. The job you do has a massive bearing on the union's strength .

BALPA have come in for a huge amount of criticism over at PPRuNe, there's a perception that what they did was look after senior pilots who could have taken retirement rather than those at the bottom of the seniority lists who will be made redundant. It used to be said that BALPA only really cared about BA pilots and certainly their inaction at the lo-wcost carriers in the early 2000's cost the profession dearly. The pilots at Virgin Atlantic formed a breakaway union. Their Irish counterpart, IALPA is apparently much better, especially at the flag carrier, as are the continental ones.

But surely this has always been the case since the age of capitalism began. And I'm afraid this will continue long beyond our time with the Pareto Efficiency leading to the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor getting poorer.

Any system that gets complacent and lazy is usually reset or removed by a catastrophic event, in the centuries past this was either a revolution (as in France) or sociecetal collapse (Rome). I'd say the most recent "reset" was WWII, where the social malaise/economic depression of the late 1920's and 1930's fuelled extremist movements. Subsequently, from 1945-1979, the workers classes were pretty much in control since the twin threat of communism and lots of military-trained working class men forced the elites to concede ground. I don't think that it's a coincidence that unadulterated capitalism and "trickle down" returned once communism was waning and the WWII servicemen were too old to fight. At some point, sooner or later, there will be another society-defining event, the elites will probably be too blinded by hubris to see it coming.

 

[dctraindriver]

Trust me, after years of office based work, there‘s an “old school” joy in only interfacing with machines when at work.

Long may that continue!




Writing Software code, producing accounts and dispensing legal advice are all jobs that will also be replaced by technology in due course.




There’s a significant rump of people who are incapable of doing jobs that require much intellectual effort. What will happen to them?

If you take out the people who are doing those jobs because they can't find another one or can't train for one (by providing help to do so), then I'd imagine you could provide for that well enough. And there are some things we could do with having back e.g. park keepers - doesn't require much intellectual thought, but does require pride in the job.

Do you seriously believe local govt etc will be in a position to offer such occupations such as an abundance of park keepers when they’re already cutting back and have been over the past 10 years? It will be a race to the bottom. Middle aged or young people who can’t find a job cycling or driving to McDonald’s on minimum wage with little defined benefits to collect an online order for someone with a few quid.

 

[Tom Quinne]

We either accept a huge group of unemployed unskilled people who are on government benefits, or if that isn’t acceptable the same people living in poverty and commiting crime to “survive”.

My daughters are going to putting their law qualifications go good use in years to come!

Welcome to the start line in the race to the bottom. I really hope all those who pushed us to this point are happy with their actions /inactions.

 

[Meerkat]

We either accept a huge group of unemployed unskilled people who are on government benefits, or if that isn’t acceptable the same people living in poverty and commiting crime to “survive”.

My daughters are going to putting their law qualifications go good use in years to come!

Welcome to the start line in the race to the bottom. I really hope all those who pushed us to this point are happy with their actions /inactions.

If we had followed your plan we would still be working on farms and dying rather early.....

 

[Starmill]

If you take out the people who are doing those jobs because they can't find another one or can't train for one (by providing help to do so), then I'd imagine you could provide for that well enough. And there are some things we could do with having back e.g. park keepers - doesn't require much intellectual thought, but does require pride in the job.

Such jobs are very important IMO, but they cannot really be funded any way other than through public money. That requires a consensus on permemently higher levels of tax revenue, which we simply don't have at the moment.

Similarly to how the future will hold lots of health and social care assistant jobs that will be suitable to those without advanced qualifications, but there needs to be the funding in place for it. In the near term this can come only from tax or government borrowing - obviously I'm in favour of lots of both.

 

[cactustwirly]

Such jobs are very important IMO, but they cannot really be funded any way other than through public money. That requires a consensus on permemently higher levels of tax revenue, which we simply don't have at the moment.

Similarly to how the future will hold lots of health and social care assistant jobs that will be suitable to those without advanced qualifications, but there needs to be the funding in place for it. In the near term this can come only from tax or government borrowing - obviously I'm in favour of lots of both.

Obviously with coronavirus, the government has borrowed a lot. I don't think it is affordable neither practical to borrow anymore. Taxes are high for people on middle incomes and there won't be an appetite for this, you could increase corporation tax, however you would need to be careful as too many taxes would be bad for the economy.

 

[Tom Quinne]

If we had followed your plan we would still be working on farms and dying rather early.....

Im all for full employment, if that mean retaining roles which could be done away with so be it. People who are employed, spend money, pay tax that money is then available to invest in education which creates a more skilled workforce etc.

There’s way to much green eyed monster, and lack of any care for anyone else in this country.

 

[Meerkat]

Im all for full employment, if that mean retaining roles which could be done away with so be it. People who are employed, spend money, pay tax that money is then available to invest in education which creates a more skilled workforce etc.

There’s way to much green eyed monster, and lack of any care for anyone else in this country.

That logic means there wouldn’t be any train drivers as we would have shunned that technology to keep canals and stagecoaches in business.

 

[bramling]

Trust me, after years of office based work, there‘s an “old school” joy in only interfacing with machines when at work.

Long may that continue!

So true.

Give me a train that’s got the worst of defects, and unless it’s physically screwed (eg all shoes knocked off) I guarantee I *will* get it moving within a reasonable time. Add in a whole load of people allegedly trying to help, either remotely or on site, and chances are we’ll all still be there after an hour.

As for automating the task of driving trains. Whilst ATO may make up for the lesser end of the human scale, I’d say it’s pretty clear that no ATO system currently available can better the performance of the best train drivers. So I’m not sure automating train driving is worthwhile, beyond specific metro applications at any rate - and even this gets less worthwhile once one moves away from the centre-of-town setting.

 

[Economist]

Obviously with coronavirus, the government has borrowed a lot. I don't think it is affordable neither practical to borrow anymore. Taxes are high for people on middle incomes and there won't be an appetite for this, you could increase corporation tax, however you would need to be careful as too many taxes would be bad for the economy.

One of the best things to do would be to close down the numerous tax havens in British Overseas Terriotories etc. They could also start properly taxing internet giants and multinationals and start recommending that the public boycott companies which pay very little tax. It would require politicians whose main interst was the public good and that's a bit of a long shot these days...

 

[Tom Quinne]

That logic means there wouldn’t be any train drivers as we would have shunned that technology to keep canals and stagecoaches in business.

I think you know what I mean.

 

[Meerkat]

I think you know what I mean.

Yes. You don’t want technology to replace jobs. But why now, when history seems to show we wouldn’t have most of the good stuff without putting some people out of work?
Its Luddism.
The march of technology is inevitable, we need to move on to discussing how we deal with the consequences.

 

[Starmill]

Obviously with coronavirus, the government has borrowed a lot. I don't think it is affordable neither practical to borrow anymore. Taxes are high for people on middle incomes and there won't be an appetite for this, you could increase corporation tax, however you would need to be careful as too many taxes would be bad for the economy.

Indeed. It is a fairly straightforward case of if you want good services as a solution to difficult problems, you need to pay for them. Generally people in this country seem to want government funded services, and want them to actually deliver quality service, but baulk at the requirement of actually paying for them.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Yes. You don’t want technology to replace jobs. But why now, when history seems to show we wouldn’t have most of the good stuff without putting some people out of work?
Its Luddism.
The march of technology is inevitable, we need to move on to discussing how we deal with the consequences.

You’ve my attention...

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Yes. You don’t want technology to replace jobs. But why now, when history seems to show we wouldn’t have most of the good stuff without putting some people out of work?
Its Luddism.
The march of technology is inevitable, we need to move on to discussing how we deal with the consequences.

Why?

Are you in power to implement policy?

Do you think discussions on here are anything more than the wet-dreams for some?

Again, another thread getting away from it’s original intent.

Worried about job security?

No. I’m not.

 

[ST]

What are thoughts about impact on customer facing roles such as Train Crew, including Conductors and Drivers? Are they completely protected in a Franchise or DFT run operation?

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I please remind posters that this thread is for front line staff to discuss any worries they may have about their job security. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please can they start a thread in the appropriate forum section. Thanks.

 

[LowLevel]

What are thoughts about impact on customer facing roles such as Train Crew, including Conductors and Drivers? Are they completely protected in a Franchise or DFT run operation?

No. There have been redundancies before. Every effort is usually made to get people with these skills/qualifications alternative roles though as they're expensive to train. Caterers have certainly been cut and in the early years of privatisation there were plenty of redundancies as the bus bandits mucked up their manning calculations. More recently things like XC closing their Brighton depot have happened.

Where there has been discussion about DOO this might push the DfT towards taking a harder line on it. I struggle to imagine my own work going that way but who knows in this scary new world.