Fun & games on the GE (8 October 2013)

[dk1]

Thankfully I am day off but getting reports of the following...

Total loss of signalling at Chelmsford. Trains cancelled or terminating short all over the place. BBC are at the station (low news day) as it will be impossible to move that amount of passengers by road.

Overheads are down at Rochford meaning no trains on the Southend Victoria line.

156407 has failed on the Sudbury Branch so service suspended.

 

[15MPHMAX]

Glad i'm late turn today looks like total carnage out there............

 

[tsr]

Looks like only a couple of trains have managed to get through Chelmsford today. One of the first trains affected - admittedly non-passenger - was the 0305 Felixstowe to Ditton Freightliner working, which has just been given roughly 153 minutes' worth of delay due to this.

 

[306024]

Advice is now not to travel at all through Chelmsford, estimate for normal working is 14.00 but that of course could change.

And the A130 is also blocked at Chelmsford by an accident, this after the A12 was closed north of Chelmsford yesterday morning. Not a good week so far.

 

[tsr]

Looks like some other trains are now being moved through Chelmsford, with severe delays. Unfortunately, there will be passenger frustration whilst a whole load of trapped freight trundles past!

 

[captainbigun]

Looks like some other trains are now being moved through Chelmsford, with severe delays. Unfortunately, there will be passenger frustration whilst a whole load of trapped freight trundles past!

Said liner was stopped in the up platform at Witham. Now why it was not looped in P1 to allow pass through is beyond me. That's pretty poor regulation and a clear point of frustration who watched the train leave.

Sometimes the railway does not help itself.

 

[306024]

What is the difference?

Sure if the passenger trains could go through Witham at 100 mph then put the freight round the back, but with a queue through Chelmsford, passenger trains can just run via platform 1 instead.

 

[captainbigun]

What is the difference?

Sure if the passenger trains could go through Witham at 100 mph then put the freight round the back, but with a queue through Chelmsford, passenger trains can just run via platform 1 instead.

Eh, paths are at a premium because of the delays! That's a very generous use of a path through the impacted area.

My point is why was it released at all! Better to bung in loop out of way surely.

 

[306024]

Ah why was it released at all is a different (and good) question. But having got to Witham it makes no odds whether it goes in platform 1 or 2, assuming it is too long just to sit in the up loop, which all liners are.

Unfortunately (depending on your point of view) the days where all freight was banished to the sidings during disruption has long gone. I have had many delays on the GEML made worse by running freight as well, but the freight guys argue they have as much right to be there as the passenger trains.

Not saying I agree or disagree, it is just the rules of the game now.

 

[captainbigun]

Ah why was it released at all is a different (and good) question. But having got to Witham it makes no odds whether it goes in platform 1 or 2, assuming it is too long just to sit in the up loop, which all liners are.

Unfortunately (depending on your point of view) the days where all freight was banished to the sidings during disruption has long gone. I have had many delays on the GEML made worse by running freight as well, but the freight guys argue they have as much right to be there as the passenger trains.

Not saying I agree or disagree, it is just the rules of the game now.

It would have sat in the loop quite happily. Not that this is the issue as you say.

I get that game has changed, but when it is as badly buggered as it was today you'd like to think that some level of priority would be given to the passengers.

Seeing that and then being told best bet is to drive to Stanstead or Shenfield doesn't look very good.

 

[Tomnick]

Once you've made the decision, for whatever reason (was it in the way?), to run a freight in these circumstances, you might as well try to keep it going. Putting it inside only creates the problem of subsequently extracting it, especially if there's concern about the driver's hours, or perhaps his return working standing somewhere.

 

[captainbigun]

Once you've made the decision, for whatever reason (was it in the way?), to run a freight in these circumstances, you might as well try to keep it going. Putting it inside only creates the problem of subsequently extracting it, especially if there's concern about the driver's hours, or perhaps his return working standing somewhere.

It wasn't in the way at Witham, it could have sat where it was. Once it was sent on it's way it was very much in the way. I guess trains were being hand signalled through the affected area, can't see that allowing more than 2 TPH give or take.

Drivers' hours are an issue across the board.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, but it didn't originate at Witham but at Felixstowe. Once it had left there the driver would be "on the clock" with regard to his/her hours. Just screwing the train down in a loop with it's driver away from a relieving point complicates matters, as Tomnick says. With passenger services disrupted to the extent that they are, it really makes little difference what type of train you run. The blockage was not the freight train but the signal failure.

O L Leigh

 

[captainbigun]

Yes, but it didn't originate at Witham but at Felixstowe. Once it had left there the driver would be "on the clock" with regard to his/her hours. Just screwing the train down in a loop with it's driver away from a relieving point complicates matters, as Tomnick says. With passenger services disrupted to the extent that they are, it really makes little difference what type of train you run. The blockage was not the freight train but the signal failure.

O L Leigh

Whoosh.....

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Do you not get the general point I am making here? You run the FL, but don't run a pass, and that's 12 carriages of punters that would've been appeased. The general punter couldn't give a ***** about drivers' hours, I understand that aspect as I deal with the railway, but watching a freight train toddle off doesn't help the view does it now?

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes I do get your general point. My contention is that you are overstating the impact of this freight train.

During severe disruption the service will be thinned according to a pre-agreed plan between the TOC and Nitwit Rail, depending on the positioning of assets such as traincrew and rolling stock. There would not have been an additional passenger train if the 'liner had been looped as you say it should have been. All that would have happened is that the following passenger trains would have moved up one place in the queue. This would not have sped up your journey noticeably nor would it have appreciably improved through-put. Any affect would have been minor.

So your point is simply that the 'liner should have been looped in order to improve the appearance of the railway.

O L Leigh

 

[Tomnick]

Was it too long for the loop at Witham, as the post above suggests? Even if not, there's still a lot of factors to consider - drivers' hours are indeed an issue for all concerned, but still probably more so for the FOC with a train standing for a long period in a loop. Was there anything behind that needed recessing? It's not, I'm sure, a decision that would have been taken lightly - even if it did come down to the fact that the FOCs are equally entitled to continue running their trains during disruption, that's surely a fault of the structure of the railway rather than the operators? Intermodal traffic is, in any case, rather 'time sensitive'.

 

[tsr]

Signalling has just been restored in the Chelmsford area.

 

[talltim]

I suspect the track access fees for a liner train are rather higher than for an EMU* Therefore they would be a more important customer!

*hunch only, if someone has the figures that would be great.

 

[306024]

Was it too long for the loop at Witham, as the post above suggests.

Witham up loop has two ways in. The 'long' route which all freightliners have to take to ensure they clear the main line, and the 'short' route which passenger trains can take to access platform 1. A train can be held in the country end of the up loop and still allow a passenger train through the second set of points providing it fits, but freightliners are too long, so they have to continue up the loop and into platform 1. And therefore in this case it didn't matter whether the freightliner was in platform 1 or 2. Easier to explain with a map

 

[GB]

What a great idea. Bung all the freights aways for hours on end ensuring the booked drivers are out of hours. Then have the FOC frantically running round for spare drivers to take the train foward just in time to screw up the evening peak somewhere.

There is a bigger picture at play and it isn't just limited to passengers:roll:

 

[SansPareil]

Anybody now the root cause of the signalling failure?

 

[Class_317]

Having read every single post on this thread the facts ARE THIS:

The blame lays with network rail. They are ultimately responsible for track and signalling. Network rail also run the signal box at Liverpool Street which I might add is being relocated to Romford and the land at Liverpool street is being sold to private investors for an eye watering amount of money.

We fund them through taxation. They prioritize based on who pays more for the road. The end.

Any arguments about who or why trains should be prioritised need to be communicated to NETWORK RAIL.

Again... . those are the facts argueing about details or anything else is just small man syndrome at the most irrelevant level.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Anybody now the root cause of the signalling failure?

Mr Rodent was hungry and fancied a nibble on something.

 

[Tomnick]

Witham up loop has two ways in. The 'long' route which all freightliners have to take to ensure they clear the main line, and the 'short' route which passenger trains can take to access platform 1. A train can be held in the country end of the up loop and still allow a passenger train through the second set of points providing it fits, but freightliners are too long, so they have to continue up the loop and into platform 1. And therefore in this case it didn't matter whether the freightliner was in platform 1 or 2. Easier to explain with a map

Ta, understood! I knew roughly what the layout was at Witham, but didn't know the lengths involved (and these trains seem to get longer by the day!).

Having read every single post on this thread the facts ARE THIS:

The blame lays with network rail. They are ultimately responsible for track and signalling. Network rail also run the signal box at Liverpool Street which I might add is being relocated to Romford and the land at Liverpool street is being sold to private investors for an eye watering amount of money.

We fund them through taxation. They prioritize based on who pays more for the road. The end.

Any arguments about who or why trains should be prioritised need to be communicated to NETWORK RAIL.

Again... . those are the facts argueing about details or anything else is just small man syndrome at the most irrelevant level.

The end? Don't see why the toys need to come out of the pram - pretty interesting discussion so far. On what basis do you reckon that regulating decisions are based on how much each operator is paying, and are you referring specifically to major disruption such as this? I make regulating decisions every day at work, and I neither know nor care how much the TOCs and FOCs involved are paying to run their trains.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect the track access fees for a liner train are rather higher than for an EMU* Therefore they would be a more important customer!

*hunch only, if someone has the figures that would be great.

Freight pays "Avoidable charges" - so basically zilch compared to a 12 car EMU. This is not to denigrate the customer value of a fully loaded container train working to a worldwide logistics programme.

 

[306024]

.........argueing about details or anything else is just small man syndrome at the most irrelevant level.

Well that's told us

 

[LBSCR Times]

So, the freight is late arriving at the terminal....
There are people waiting to unload the containers to take to customers (companies).
Those companies are then having their staff standing around having nothing to do, but no doubt still being paid, and then when it does turn up, there is no-one to unload.

Similarly, if a liner train arrives late at the port, then the ship may have left already.

Having worked in the freight sector, the customer can be just as demanding as a TOC passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having read every single post on this thread the facts ARE THIS:

The blame lays with network rail.

As far as the customer is concerned, it is a rail industry problem.....
They don't give a damm about whose fault it is within the industry.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having read every single post on this thread the facts ARE THIS:

...the land at Liverpool street is being sold to private investors for an eye watering amount of money.

...They prioritize based on who pays more for the road.

It would be helpful to see the factual sources behind those two statements.

 

[Tomnick]

Going back to the quibbling around running the liner rather than recessing it at Witham, just read on another forum that some trains were turned back at Witham. I'm not sure how this was done, if indeed it was done (shunts south of the station?), but presumably a long freight train occupying the up loop and platform would do nothing to expedite that process. I'm still not even sure whether the liner was run (via the up main) when 'captainbigun' thinks it should have been put away, or released (from the up loop). Surely it can't have been in both the up loop and the up main platform?!

 

[dk1]

Going back to the quibbling around running the liner rather than recessing it at Witham, just read on another forum that some trains were turned back at Witham. I'm not sure how this was done, if indeed it was done (shunts south of the station?), but presumably a long freight train occupying the up loop and platform would do nothing to expedite that process. I'm still not even sure whether the liner was run (via the up main) when 'captainbigun' thinks it should have been put away, or released (from the up loop). Surely it can't have been in both the up loop and the up main platform?!

During engineering work two drivers are used on Norwich sets if running up road then back over the crossovers to head back down road into platforms 3/4. Occasionally we start back wrong road via the bi-di returning U to D at Kelvedon crossovers.