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Further RMT strike action on SWR [latest action suspended]

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hwl

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Considering significant infrastructure works would be required for the 701s to make full use of this technology and NR are struggling to maintain what they have already I have some serious doubts that forcing through their desired method of operation is going to the yield the results they are looking for..
The infrastructure works involve clipping a few pallets of standalone* ETCS positioning balises to sleepers very precisely. NR managed to do this at far more stations before all the 700s** arrived for example. How does this qualify as significant? NR managed to fit the Hima-Sella Tracklink3 balises for SWT previously (e.g. for 458 Windsor line ASDO) without issue, this isn't that different.

*No external wiring /power required.

**700s use ETCS balises for ASDO and CSDE.
 
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Monty

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The infrastructure works involve clipping a few pallets of standalone* ETCS positioning balises to sleepers very precisely. NR managed to do this at far more stations before all the 700s** arrived for example. How does this qualify as significant? NR managed to fit the Hima-Sella Tracklink3 balises for SWT previously (e.g. for 458 Windsor line ASDO) without issue, this isn't that different.

*No external wiring /power required.

**700s use ETCS balises for ASDO and CSDE.

As far as I'm concerned any work is significant for NR at the moment given how underfunded and overstretched they are.

Also in addition I'm led to believe to get the assisted braking to work quite a number of these balises will need to be installed and not used one at the end of each platform.
 
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hwl

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As far as I'm concerned any work is significant for NR at the moment given how underfunded and overstretched they are.

Also in addition I'm led to believe to get the assisted braking to work quite a number of these balises will need to be installed and not used one at the end of each platform.
All the new RSSB/ETCS standard ASDO installations have quite a large number of balises installed rather than just the traditional single Tracklink ones.
 

Socanxdis

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What is the point of all this? You're going to lose time due to signal faults or the usual congestion between Clapham-Waterloo. Any time savings at stations will be lost during the journey.
 

Monty

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All the new RSSB/ETCS standard ASDO installations have quite a large number of balises installed rather than just the traditional single Tracklink ones.

It still all needs be installed, tested and signed off, It's not a minor project.

What is the point of all this? You're going to lose time due to signal faults or the usual congestion between Clapham-Waterloo. Any time savings at stations will be lost during the journey.

This, if they really want to improve timekeeping and scheduling they need to fix the semi permanent speed restrictions at places like Weybridge or Clapham which cause serious bottlenecks.
 

Carlisle

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*No external wiring /power required.

**700s use ETCS balises for ASDO and CSDE.
As presumably do Scotrail class 385s as I’ve noticed balises recently installed in the Glasgow & Edinburgh areas
 

mresh91

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im Genuinely not sure when this will end, as if you believe SWR, they won’t run 701s without a guard. That means potentially any guards strike with 701s in traffic could still have the same effect,

I did read that the strike action is concerning the 701 new stock specifically, and that all other rolling stock will require a guard to run a service. But didn't they say they will "roster" a safety-critical guard on every 701 train, but handle control of the doors to the driver, and that only during times of disruption will they run the train without a guard, to avoid cancellations/service deterioration?
 

adamello

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I did read that the strike action is concerning the 701 new stock specifically, and that all other rolling stock will require a guard to run a service. But didn't they say they will "roster" a safety-critical guard on every 701 train, but handle control of the doors to the driver, and that only during times of disruption will they run the train without a guard, to avoid cancellations/service deterioration?

That was the initial plan, now they say they will operate every train with a Safety Critical Guard on board..
 
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The RMT needs a change at the top which unfortunately does not look to be on the horizon anytime soon. They ruined negotiations on GTR regarding the role of the Guard wrecking the terms and conditions of several members when the role was simply implemented without agreement now once SWR has their new trains they will probably do the same once again to the detriment of the members. Not every Train Guard is obsessed with opening and closing train doors, whilst it is in an important part of the job so is assisting customers and delivering a good service whilst being able to take your full wages every month. If they gurantee a Safety Critical Guard on every train what is the problem. At the moment the company would probably offer them an inflation busting pay rise if they offered to come to an agreement.
 

RPI

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The RMT needs a change at the top which unfortunately does not look to be on the horizon anytime soon. They ruined negotiations on GTR regarding the role of the Guard wrecking the terms and conditions of several members when the role was simply implemented without agreement now once SWR has their new trains they will probably do the same once again to the detriment of the members. Not every Train Guard is obsessed with opening and closing train doors, whilst it is in an important part of the job so is assisting customers and delivering a good service whilst being able to take your full wages every month. If they gurantee a Safety Critical Guard on every train what is the problem. At the moment the company would probably offer them an inflation busting pay rise if they offered to come to an agreement.
Spot on, I was never a massive fan of Bob Crow but he was a very shrewd negotiator and knew his limitations, he knew exactly when to strike a deal and I feel that if he was still around this dispute would have been sorted long ago.

I can see in the end SWR just going nuclear and giving the compulsory notice period before just changing everyones contracts, I left the RMT years ago as I felt that grinding a political axe was a higher priority to them than actually acting in their members interests and i stand by that, the sad thing is the members who are giving up their pay to make a stand are just being used as pawns by the union.
 

3141

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The DfT must be thinking about what should happen when SWR defaults financially. i.e. all the parent company funding is used up and the franchise cannot meet its premium payments. The choices must be between OLR and a management contract. In either case the DfT will need to decide what line it wants taken on the guards' dispute. Tell OLR to settle and it will look as if "nationalisation" is the way to solve a long-running industrial dispute. Tell First/MTR to settle and I reckon they'd want to think very hard about whether to bother with a management contract on those terms. Maybe there would be a split between the two partners. Will be interesting to see how Grant Shapps handles this one.
 

samuelmorris

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The DfT must be thinking about what should happen when SWR defaults financially. i.e. all the parent company funding is used up and the franchise cannot meet its premium payments. The choices must be between OLR and a management contract. In either case the DfT will need to decide what line it wants taken on the guards' dispute. Tell OLR to settle and it will look as if "nationalisation" is the way to solve a long-running industrial dispute. Tell First/MTR to settle and I reckon they'd want to think very hard about whether to bother with a management contract on those terms. Maybe there would be a split between the two partners. Will be interesting to see how Grant Shapps handles this one.
I think given the attitude to franchising generally, SWR's franchise in its current form being torn up before the end date isn't a case of if, but when. If Shapps does actually decide to take action about franchises not performing, SWR is already in the spotlight, probably mostly due to the industrial action even though that's only part of the problem. Since this isn't Grayling, I would sincerely hope that the DfT would realise they can't afford to throw money away by allowing this ordeal to continue. Very interested to see how they solve it though.
 

Brissle Girl

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I think given the attitude to franchising generally, SWR's franchise in its current form being torn up before the end date isn't a case of if, but when. If Shapps does actually decide to take action about franchises not performing, SWR is already in the spotlight, probably mostly due to the industrial action even though that's only part of the problem. Since this isn't Grayling, I would sincerely hope that the DfT would realise they can't afford to throw money away by allowing this ordeal to continue. Very interested to see how they solve it though.
The fact is though that whilst the DfT will huff and puff about performance, the only reason Northern (and before that Virgin EC) were replaced by the OLR is that they breached/were on the point of breaching the financial terms of the contract, having effectively run out of money (to put it simply). SWR is rapidly going the same way as is widely acknowledged.
 

samuelmorris

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The fact is though that whilst the DfT will huff and puff about performance, the only reason Northern (and before that Virgin EC) were replaced by the OLR is that they breached/were on the point of breaching the financial terms of the contract, having effectively run out of money (to put it simply). SWR is rapidly going the same way as is widely acknowledged.
Indeed, but once the DfT inherit the problem of the industrial action, it becomes their problem to solve, not SWR's - or should I say, it becomes whatever OLR entity they decide to create's problem. Given the government's push to expand DOO is what opened this can of worms in the first place, my guess would be they'd double down on it rather than capitulating to the union's demands, but I guess we'll see.
 

hwl

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The fact is though that whilst the DfT will huff and puff about performance, the only reason Northern (and before that Virgin EC) were replaced by the OLR is that they breached/were on the point of breaching the financial terms of the contract, having effectively run out of money (to put it simply). SWR is rapidly going the same way as is widely acknowledged.
I'm not sure SWR is in a dire state as they make out /people assume (I've been through their recent accounts etc). What they effectively announced was effectively making less money for the rest of the franchise but reckonising this in the current tax year which happens to be tax efficient. The other useful effect is as shock tactic to wake DfT up a bit before renegotiations.

DfT have plenty more they need to worry about more than SWR.
 

samuelmorris

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I'm not sure SWR is in a dire state as they make out /people assume (I've been through their recent accounts etc). What they effectively announced was effectively making less money for the rest of the franchise but reckonising this in the current tax year which happens to be tax efficient. The other useful effect is as shock tactic to wake DfT up a bit before renegotiations.

DfT have plenty more they need to worry about more than SWR.
If they're not losing huge sums of money from the extensive period they've not been able to operate services, I'd be amazed. The margins on TOCs are usually fairly slim.
 

hwl

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If they're not losing huge sums of money from the extensive period they've not been able to operate services, I'd be amazed. The margins on TOCs are usually fairly slim.
DfT compensate for much of the strike disrupton.
 

Brissle Girl

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I'm not sure SWR is in a dire state as they make out /people assume (I've been through their recent accounts etc). What they effectively announced was effectively making less money for the rest of the franchise but reckonising this in the current tax year which happens to be tax efficient. The other useful effect is as shock tactic to wake DfT up a bit before renegotiations.

DfT have plenty more they need to worry about more than SWR.
The Going Concern section appears to contradict that view. It says that the amount already set aside under the onerous contracts provision is unlikely to be enough and also that the various levels of committed parental support will be burnt through within the next 12 months (from approval of the accounts, not the end of the reporting year).
 

HamworthyGoods

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SWR is already in the spotlight, probably mostly due to the industrial action even though that's only part of the problem. Since this isn't Grayling, I would sincerely hope that the DfT would realise they can't afford to throw money away by allowing this ordeal to continue. Very interested to see how they solve it though.

The government has made it quite clear the dispute obet operation of the trains will continue until control of the doors passes to the driver whoever operates the franchise. Here’s the relevant extract from Grant Shapps’ statement on 22nd January:

Modernisation of the railways must come with reciprocal modernisation of the way the railway is operated. Passengers on SWR have already suffered significant disruption from industrial action by the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT), and this week the RMTare balloting for further strikes.

These strikes are not about safety, accessibility or helping passengers. Driver controlled trains are perfectly safe, and have been operated elsewhere on the network for many years. These trains allow the guards to devote much more time to looking after passengers, which is of great benefit to those who need help with travel, like the disabled and the aged. This modernisation is essential if the future needs of this railway are to be met.

Whoever operates SWR services, I will remain committed to modernising services and improving support for passengers”
 

pompeyfan

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A snippet of the ASLEF deal is being circulated which suggests that the company may consider modifying 444s and 450s for ‘DCO’.

the picture comes from Geoff Kites twitter feed in response to the tweet from Paul Clifton.

https://twitter.com/paulcliftonbbc/status/1240247640308269061?s=21

Drivers on @SW_Help to get 29.3% pay rise over 4 years. Includes 11% this year. Takes basic pay from £53k in 2019 to £67k in 2022. In return @ASLEFunion members agree to open and close train doors.
 

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Fincra5

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A snippet of the ASLEF deal is being circulated which suggests that the company may consider modifying 444s and 450s for ‘DCO’.

the picture comes from Geoff Kites twitter feed in response to the tweet from Paul Clifton.

https://twitter.com/paulcliftonbbc/status/1240247640308269061?s=21

SWR aren't rolling in riches, fitting DOO Equipment isn't cheap. The likelihood is Desiros would be altered to Driver Release - Guard Close. DOO Equipment is quite the large job for that fleet. Plus their cabs looks squished enough! Where would you put the monitors?
 

samuelmorris

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SWR aren't rolling in riches, fitting DOO Equipment isn't cheap. The likelihood is Desiros would be altered to Driver Release - Guard Close. DOO Equipment is quite the large job for that fleet. Plus their cabs looks squished enough! Where would you put the monitors?
Where are they positioned on other DOO gangwayed stock?
 

swt_passenger

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Where are they positioned on other DOO gangwayed stock?
On various Electrostars they’re in a vertical column on a hinged section of bulkhead to the right of the driver. When the cab is in use it folds out into the area where the through gangway would be.
 

samuelmorris

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On various Electrostars they’re in a vertical column on a hinged section of bulkhead to the right of the driver. When the cab is in use it folds out into the area where the through gangway would be.
Would it be possible to retrofit the Desiro cabs to do the same? I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap.
 

theironroad

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A snippet of the ASLEF deal is being circulated which suggests that the company may consider modifying 444s and 450s for ‘DCO’.

the picture comes from Geoff Kites twitter feed in response to the tweet from Paul Clifton.

https://twitter.com/paulcliftonbbc/status/1240247640308269061?s=21

I'd suggest the only change will be that drivers will OPEN doors on 450/444 after risk assessments, updates to training and guidance.

SWR aren't rolling in riches, fitting DOO Equipment isn't cheap. The likelihood is Desiros would be altered to Driver Release - Guard Close. DOO Equipment is quite the large job for that fleet. Plus their cabs looks squished enough! Where would you put the monitors?

450/444 have had thedoor control buttons on the desk since they were built 15+years ago. They've never been energised. Connecting the wires wouldn't be expensive to enable the buttons to allow door opening. I'd agree installing monitors and body side cameras would be a major task and I don't forsee that happening.
Where are they positioned on other DOO gangwayed stock?

On various Electrostars they’re in a vertical column on a hinged section of bulkhead to the right of the driver. When the cab is in use it folds out into the area where the through gangway would be.

That would be the only solution in 444/450 but I really don't think the way the internal doors in the cab are currently configured would even allow that as it would make the cab very cramped and probably pose a escape route risk . I suppose if they tried to reconfigure the doors (installing bi or Tri fold doors for the doors that enclose the driving cab and second drivers side of the cab when the train are in multiple then it might work, but a major job and pretty unlikely I'd reckon)
 

adamello

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I'm the only one reading the words "where technology allows" then..

This means where fitted, not retrofitting all the other stock
 

Brissle Girl

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I'm the only one reading the words "where technology allows" then..

This means where fitted, not retrofitting all the other stock
The last bullet specifically mentions modifying existing rolling stock where practicable to allow DCO, so I think the intention is very clear. It’s now up to SWR as to whether they extend it, not ASLEF.
 

hwl

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The last bullet specifically mentions modifying existing rolling stock where practicable to allow DCO, so I think the intention is very clear. It’s now up to SWR as to whether they extend it, not ASLEF.
LNR were apparently thinking about modifying their Desiros for DOO but not sure where that ended up.
 

Backroom_boy

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The last bullet specifically mentions modifying existing rolling stock where practicable to allow DCO, so I think the intention is very clear. It’s now up to SWR as to whether they extend it, not ASLEF.

What's the detail of the agreement with ASLEF around DCO? Previous DCO agreements said a guard had to be rostered for every service but if one wasnt available the service would still run.
 
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