Future ECML & LNER Services

[TheBigD]

In the LNER Azuma thread this document was posted.

It lists the service asperations (now) LNER planned for various timetables once the new Azumas are up and running.

Although the timescales will have slipped, the base LNER service for May 2019 would have seen the following...

Hourly Kings Cross - Edinburgh fast (around 4 hours)
Hourly Kings Cross - Edinburgh semi-fast (around 4hr30)
Twice hourly Kings Cross - Leeds fast (around 2 hours), one every two hours extended to Bradford
Hourly Kings Cross - Newcastle stopper (around 3hr05)
2 hourly Kings Cross - Lincoln stopper (around 1hr40)
2 hourly Kings Cross - Harrogate stopper (via Garforth) (around 2hr40)
From May 2020 a 2 hourly Kings Cross - Middlesborough would have been added.

However it states that a number of infrastructure enhancements are assumed...

4 tracking Woodwalton - Huntingdon
Grade separation at Werrington
York station north throat
Peterborough down slow upgrade
Doncaster enhancements
Freight enhancements North of York

Given that a number of these have yet to happen or have been deferred, York station north throat for example, does anyone know what services are planned on the current ECML infrastructure, both for LNER, Hull Trains and Grand Central please.

 

[Glenn1969]

They also had franchise commitments for a 2 hourly Bradford FS service and a once a day Huddersfield train.

Have these now been abandoned under LNER?

 

[TheBigD]

They also had franchise commitments for a 2 hourly Bradford FS service and a once a day Huddersfield train.

Have these now been abandoned under LNER?

Sorry. I missed the Bradford service off by mistake. I'll try to edit the original post.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

They also had franchise commitments for a 2 hourly Bradford FS service and a once a day Huddersfield train.

Have these now been abandoned under LNER?

No. They will happen and are being taken forward by LNER.

 

[Lincoln]

There has been some messages on Twitter that point towards Lincoln having its service improved in September 2019. Along with some talk in Parliament. This is, of course, tempered with nothing mentioned publicly by LNER themselves.

Couple of sources and extracts below:

https://twitter.com/karenleemp/status/1088383585562869760?s=21

Very pleased to have worked with Lord Cormack to receive the assurance from @LNER that Lincoln will get extra train services in September #ProudtobeLincoln bit.ly/2DxcVVb

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...98-4CD0-AE0D-AD5421090A7D/RailwaysReliability

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for all that she has done to try to ensure that we have the promised more reliable service between London and Lincoln. In particular, I thank her for attending the meeting with the chief executive of LNER and the Member of Parliament for Lincoln shortly before Christmas. Can she give the House any further comfort than she gave last week? LNER has said that it wishes to introduce this service in September, but I believe that we are now dependent on Network Rail. Can she put—I will not say a bomb—a boot behind Network Rail to ensure that it enables LNER to deliver on its promise?

 

[Aictos]

York station north throat
Peterborough down slow upgrade
Doncaster enhancements
Freight enhancements North of York

What exactly is Network Rail intending to do with these enhancements? Specifically the Down Slow at Peterborough as this is the first I've heard of any of the above.

I am very much aware of the four tracking at Woodwalton to Huntingdon and the Grade separation at Werrington programmes though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the NR ECML enhancements are approved for CP6 with the exception of the 4-tracking at Woodwalton.
There's also the planned remodelling and resignalling at King's Cross to factor in.
I think the Doncaster work is complete (P0?), but the rest is hardly started yet.
Power supply upgrades north of York are also needed and I think are in hand.
TPE is also bidding for new paths (notably Newcastle-Edinburgh) which may conflict with the LNER bids.
To my mind, 4tph Newcastle-Edinburgh (2xLNER, 1xXC, 1xTPE) is overkill.
LNER also has a few hurdles to overcome with its fleet replacement over the next couple of years.

 

[Esker-pades]

I think the NR ECML enhancements are approved for CP6 with the exception of the 4-tracking at Woodwalton.
There's also the planned remodelling and resignalling at King's Cross to factor in.
I think the Doncaster work is complete (P0?), but the rest is hardly started yet.
Power supply upgrades north of York are also needed and I think are in hand.
TPE is also bidding for new paths (notably Newcastle-Edinburgh) which may conflict with the LNER bids.
To my mind, 4tph Newcastle-Edinburgh (2xLNER, 1xXC, 1xTPE) is overkill.
LNER also has a few hurdles to overcome with its fleet replacement over the next couple of years.

It's more giving direct services from Edinburgh to places in England which means they have to come down one of two routes.

 

[Class 170101]

Twice hourly Kings Cross - Leeds fast (around 2 hours), one every two hours extended to Bradford
2 hourly Kings Cross - Lincoln stopper (around 1hr40)
2 hourly Kings Cross - Harrogate stopper (via Garforth) (around 2hr40)
From May 2020 a 2 hourly Kings Cross - Middlesborough would have been added.

However it states that a number of infrastructure enhancements are assumed...

I don't see why these need any infrastructure enhancement on the ECML. The current Newark Northgate services could be extended to Lincoln.
The curent York services extended to Middlesbrough
The current half hourly Leeds services (all via Wakefield Westgate admittedly) extended to Bradford, Huddersfield, Harrogate (and Skipton) as required.

 

[Kite159]

If LNER are anything like DOR East Coast, probably no additional services will be added, maybe a token extension of a mid afternoon Newark stopper to Lincoln as a "look we care" message. Maybe also a token extension of a late evening Leeds service to Huddersfield as a tick box exercise (which will get cancelled at the drop of the hat at any issues on the ECML with any passengers holding LNER advances towards Huddersfield to be allowed travel on any number of the TPE services between the two places).

LNER should just focus on the core ECML market.

 

[Aictos]

I don't see why these need any infrastructure enhancement on the ECML. The current Newark Northgate services could be extended to Lincoln.
The curent York services extended to Middlesbrough
The current half hourly Leeds services (all via Wakefield Westgate admittedly) extended to Bradford, Huddersfield, Harrogate (and Skipton) as required.

I agree with Newark Northgate terminators being extended to Lincoln however I don't agree just with the extending the Yorks to Middlesborough as there are alternatives such as Harrogate (from the York end) no reversal needed except at Harrogate itself), Newcastle to provide a semi fast and frequent service calling at all major IC stations from London to Newcastle etc..

 

[TheBigD]

What exactly is Network Rail intending to do with these enhancements? Specifically the Down Slow at Peterborough as this is the first I've heard of any of the above.

I am very much aware of the four tracking at Woodwalton to Huntingdon and the Grade separation at Werrington programmes though.

Happy to be corrected but I think the plan for the down slow is so that down trains stopping at Peterborough will diverge at Fletton at linespeed (100mph(?) instead of the current 40mph(?) turnout at Crescent Jct, next to Nene Carriage Sidings. Not sure of the actual speeds.

 

[Class 170101]

I agree with Newark Northgate terminators being extended to Lincoln however I don't agree just with the extending the Yorks to Middlesborough as there are alternatives such as Harrogate (from the York end) no reversal needed except at Harrogate itself), Newcastle to provide a semi fast and frequent service calling at all major IC stations from London to Newcastle etc..

Harrogate may be so but I think a better business case is still from the Leeds end. My point is that these don't any enhancements of ECML infrastructure and could be done now by extension of existing services.

EDIT also if you extend the York to Harrogate then it can't be extended to Middlesbrough. Hence the extension to Harrogate from Leeds instead of York.

The Newcastle and the Edinburgh needs an extra path for each which isn't available until the enhancements are built as outlined above.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see why these need any infrastructure enhancement on the ECML. The current Newark Northgate services could be extended to Lincoln.
The curent York services extended to Middlesbrough
The current half hourly Leeds services (all via Wakefield Westgate admittedly) extended to Bradford, Huddersfield, Harrogate (and Skipton) as required.

Because the plan is to increase the number of long distance high speed trains per hour to London. Leeds to London will increase to 3tp2h, and Newcastle to London to 3tph among other changes. The proposed Middlesbrough service is a new fast service, calling only at Peterborough between London and York.

Changing the timetable in the way you've suggested probably is possible, although it would have fewer benefits and would probably leave a large amount of surplus rolling stock hanging around doing nothing once the entire new fleet has entered passenger service.

 

[VT 390]

The curent York services extended to Middlesbrough

I thought at one point there were proposals to extend the York terminating services to Harrogate?

 

[TheBigD]

Because the plan is to increase the number of long distance high speed trains per hour to London. Leeds to London will increase to 3tp2h, and Newcastle to London to 3tph among other changes. The proposed Middlesbrough service is a new fast service, calling only at Peterborough between London and York.

Leeds is proposed to be 5tp2h not 3.

The current half hourly service via Wakefield will have a number of stops removed and speeded up and taking around 2 hours. The new 2 hourly Harrogate service will call at the smaller ECML stations.

From the linked document it will be...
Hourly Kings Cross - Peterborough - Wakefield - Leeds (every 2 hours to Shipley & Bradford)
Hourly Kings Cross - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds
2 hourly Kings Cross -Stevenage - Grantham - Newark - Retford - Doncaster - Leeds - Horsforth - Harrogate

 

[VT 390]

Leeds is proposed to be 5tp2h not 3.

The current half hourly service via Wakefield will have a number of stops removed and speeded up and taking around 2 hours. The new 2 hourly Harrogate service will call at the smaller ECML stations.

From the linked document it will be...
Hourly Kings Cross - Peterborough - Wakefield - Leeds (every 2 hours to Shipley & Bradford)
Hourly Kings Cross - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds
2 hourly Kings Cross -Stevenage - Grantham - Newark - Retford - Doncaster - Leeds - Horsforth - Harrogate

Will this mean that Grantham and Stevenage will get fewer LNER services than at present?

 

[TheBigD]

Will this mean that Grantham and Stevenage will get fewer LNER services than at present?

No. Both will have 2 trains an hour.

Hourly Kings Cross -Newcastle stopper.
2 hourly Kings Cross - Lincoln
2 hourly Kings Cross - Harrogate

Looking at the document there maybe less on Saturdays though... Sundays would be similar to weekdays from 10:00 onwards...

"...at weekends the proposal is to enhance the Saturday service to 5tph, comprising 2tph to Leeds,2tph to Edinburgh and a fifth train operating to Lincoln, Hull or Newcastle..."

 

[Class 170101]

Because the plan is to increase the number of long distance high speed trains per hour to London. Leeds to London will increase to 3tp2h, and Newcastle to London to 3tph among other changes. The proposed Middlesbrough service is a new fast service, calling only at Peterborough between London and York.

Changing the timetable in the way you've suggested probably is possible, although it would have fewer benefits and would probably leave a large amount of surplus rolling stock hanging around doing nothing once the entire new fleet has entered passenger service.

I thought at one point there were proposals to extend the York terminating services to Harrogate?

Leeds is proposed to be 5tp2h not 3.

The current half hourly service via Wakefield will have a number of stops removed and speeded up and taking around 2 hours. The new 2 hourly Harrogate service will call at the smaller ECML stations.

From the linked document it will be...
Hourly Kings Cross - Peterborough - Wakefield - Leeds (every 2 hours to Shipley & Bradford)
Hourly Kings Cross - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds
2 hourly Kings Cross -Stevenage - Grantham - Newark - Retford - Doncaster - Leeds - Horsforth - Harrogate

You have all missed the point I am trying to make.

This is a suggestion for the interim and that serving these destinations do NOT need any of the ECML infrastructure enhancements listed up thread as they could be grafted onto the existing timetable as an interim measure why passengers should need to wait for the enhancements listed that shouldn't affect provision of services to these destinations is beyond me.

 

[Starmill]

Leeds is proposed to be 5tp2h not 3.

Whops, 5 is what I meant! 3 would be a reduction on now.

 

[Starmill]

You have all missed the point I am trying to make.

I don't think so. You advocated for a suspension or reduction in the enhanced base service on the ECML, and we all pointed out it was a good plan and shouldn't be sidelined.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think so. You advocated for a suspension or reduction in the enhanced base service on the ECML, and we all pointed out it was a good plan and shouldn't be sidelined.

Not a suspension or a reduction but a delivery of those services that could be done that aren't relying on infrastructure upgrades sooner. So Middlesbrough, Lincoln, Bradford and Harrogate could all have their ECML services before the upgrades are completed by extending existing services from York, Newark and Leeds respectively. They could then be recast at a subsequent date to reflect the new services proposed using the new infrastructure as currently proposed / being built.

Clearly the extra services on the ECML (up from 5 to 6 per hour from Kings Cross) need to wait for the extra capacity to be built.

 

[robbeech]

Would the Harrogate extension @ 1tp2h that calls at Retford be in the opposite (ish) hour than the York stopper that calls at Retford giving Retford 1tph (so only half as many as Newark instead of a quarter) or would they pull Retford from the York stopper so it remains at 1tp2h and the least served station on the ECML by LNER?

 

[TheBigD]

Would the Harrogate extension @ 1tp2h that calls at Retford be in the opposite (ish) hour than the York stopper that calls at Retford giving Retford 1tph (so only half as many as Newark instead of a quarter) or would they pull Retford from the York stopper so it remains at 1tp2h and the least served station on the ECML by LNER?

No. Retford would only be served by the Harrogate service every 2 hours by LNER. I assume Hull Trains services would be similar to now.
In effect Retford would lose York services but gain Leeds services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not a suspension or a reduction but a delivery of those services that could be done that aren't relying on infrastructure upgrades sooner.

At the moment the main constraint is that the LNER are having to flog their rolling stock to near death day in, day out. I doubt we'll see anything change until they have their IETs in service in large numbers.

If LNER are anything like DOR East Coast, probably no additional services will be added, maybe a token extension of a mid afternoon Newark stopper to Lincoln as a "look we care" message.

Going to be an awful lot of IETs sat around doing nothing but costing money in that case.

 

[robbeech]

No. Retford would only be served by the Harrogate service every 2 hours by LNER. I assume Hull Trains services would be similar to now.
In effect Retford would lose York services but gain Leeds services.

So Worksop to York requires an extra change and a wait then given it’s ludicrously not valid via Sheffield.
Well what a surprise, imagine if Retford managed to get more than a quarter of the services that Newark did.
I’m not including Hull Trains because sadly that doesn’t currently prove reliable enough though may do once this timetable comes into force. Not to worry, I guess passenger numbers at Retford will drop again due to lack of services which will prompt a reduction in services to 1tplm (lunar month)

 

[VT 390]

So Worksop to York requires an extra change and a wait then given it’s ludicrously not valid via Sheffield.
Well what a surprise, imagine if Retford managed to get more than a quarter of the services that Newark did.
I’m not including Hull Trains because sadly that doesn’t currently prove reliable enough though may do once this timetable comes into force. Not to worry, I guess passenger numbers at Retford will drop again due to lack of services which will prompt a reduction in services to 1tplm (lunar month)

Once Northern introduce 2tph Sheffield-Retford I would have thought that more ECML trains would call there with Retford becoming a more important interchange station.

 

[Starmill]

Once Northern introduce 2tph Sheffield-Retford I would have thought that more ECML trains would call there with Retford becoming a more important interchange station.

There is vanishingly little evidence now or over the past 10 years that the ECML proprietor has ever considered Retford a location of any particular value for interchange. They could attempt to increase their market share of Sheffield <> London by doing this, but I slightly doubt the feasibility of that. What's more, interchange at Retford takes a very long time indeed in some cases. If you arrive at Retford from London and wish to travel towards Worksop you potentially have to traverse a subway, a bridge, 3 flights of stairs and a walk along almost the whole length of one platform. Officially you can be given as little as 10 minutes to do it but anyone who needs the lift or is a little slower on their feet could easily miss that.

I would have thought that Leeds is a slightly more useful destination than York for Retford passengers to have consistent direct access to. Anyone travelling north of York can still change at Doncaster.

 

[Class 170101]

No. Retford would only be served by the Harrogate service every 2 hours by LNER. I assume Hull Trains services would be similar to now.
In effect Retford would lose York services but gain Leeds services.

Would that not make it difficult to travel north of Doncaster / York to stations north of these?

At the moment the main constraint is that the LNER are having to flog their rolling stock to near death day in, day out. I doubt we'll see anything change until they have their IETs in service in large numbers.

I accept this but somehow even with the current delays as described elsewhere with IETs I think they will still enter service before the enhancements are finished allowing extra paths to / from Kings Cross. Should extra services be delivered where possible even if the infrastructure isn't completed first?

 

[robbeech]

There is vanishingly little evidence now or over the past 10 years that the ECML proprietor has ever considered Retford a location of any particular value for interchange. They could attempt to increase their market share of Sheffield <> London by doing this, but I slightly doubt the feasibility of that. What's more, interchange at Retford takes a very long time indeed in some cases. If you arrive at Retford from London and wish to travel towards Worksop you potentially have to traverse a subway, a bridge, 3 flights of stairs and a walk along almost the whole length of one platform. Officially you can be given as little as 10 minutes to do it but anyone who needs the lift or is a little slower on their feet could easily miss that.

I would have thought that Leeds is a slightly more useful destination than York for Retford passengers to have consistent direct access to. Anyone travelling north of York can still change at Doncaster.

There is already 1tph to Leeds direct all be it via Sheffield and taking longer of course. 1tp2h for a faster service of around 50 minutes would be nice but a current change at Doncaster only adds around 9 minutes to the journey and the worry would be how well an Edinburgh / Newcastle Service was timed from it at Doncaster. A half hour wait at Doncaster wouldn’t be welcomed by many I don’t think.
Surely having 1tp2h to Leeds and 1tp2h in the opposite hour to York would be sensible but I assume it won’t happen.