Future ECML & LNER Services

[Ianno87]

Surely having 1tp2h to Leeds and 1tp2h in the opposite hour to York would be sensible but I assume it won’t happen.

Having trains do different things in different hours inevitably wastes route capacity and results in fewer trains fitting in the timetable.

The number of trains on the ECML south of Donny is going to need as much hour-to-hour consistency as possible to work.

 

[robbeech]

Then a fixed 1tph service to either Leeds or york (or north) would be more sensible.

 

[Starmill]

Having trains do different things in different hours inevitably wastes route capacity and results in fewer trains fitting in the timetable.

The number of trains on the ECML south of Donny is going to need as much hour-to-hour consistency as possible to work.

We've already established that the proposed base timetable includes a 2 hourly London to Leeds or beyond via Hambleton.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What’s happened to the Hull service here?

 

[TheBigD]

What’s happened to the Hull service here?

There are route maps at the end of the document on post #1 which suggest it will still be just one LNER service a day.

 

[Crun]

Today's RAIL magazine has the week beginning April 15th as the target date for Azumas to enter passenger traffic...

 

[_toommm_]

Today's RAIL magazine has the week beginning April 15th as the target date for Azumas to enter passenger traffic...

Not going to happen - LNER are planning end of 2019 unless something drastic had changed for them to be able to cut 8 months off...

 

[Ianno87]

We've already established that the proposed base timetable includes a 2 hourly London to Leeds or beyond via Hambleton.

That would most likely alternate with a 2 hourly Open Access to give a consistentish path south of Donny.

 

[Starmill]

That would most likely alternate with a 2 hourly Open Access to give a consistentish path south of Donny.

Quite, so by definition, not the same stops. Also, in the case of GC, we've established from the Network Rail's RUS that due to the inferior power of their rolling stock they won't quite be able to meet the same running times. So the whole notion of 'keeping the timetable the same every hour between Doncaster and London' has many spanners in it before we've begun.

 

[TheBigD]

We've already established that the proposed base timetable includes a 2 hourly London to Leeds or beyond via Hambleton.

That would most likely alternate with a 2 hourly Open Access to give a consistentish path south of Donny.

The 2 hourly Lincoln and the 2 hourly Harroagte via Hambleton will alternate south of Newark.

 

[Starmill]

The 2 hourly Lincoln and the 2 hourly Harroagte via Hambleton will alternate south of Newark.

Where's @robbeech ? direct train from Retford to Harrogate could be fun?

 

[robbeech]

Yes. I travel to Harrogate a lot and it would indeed be useful. However have you seen the price???
There are splits via Sheffield for a considerable saving (and of course nowadays since trains from Worksop / Retford go to Leeds it’s only 1 change)

 

[TheBigD]

Following the discussions about the proposed services I will try to summarise what is/was planned for May 2020 from the document.

Service 1 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - York (2 hourly) - Newcastle - Edinburgh.

Service 2 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - Peterborough - Doncaster - York - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle - Morpeth (peak/occasional) - Alnmouth (2 hourly) Berwick - Dunbar (peak/occasional) - Edinburgh (extensions to Glasgow/Aberdeen/Inverness).

Service 3 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - Stevenage - Peterborough (2 hourly) - Grantham - Newark - Doncaster - York - Northallerton (peak/occasional) Darlington - Durham (2 hourly) - Newcastle (1 extension to Sunderland).

Service 4 (2 hourly)...
Kings Cross - Peterborough - York - Northallerton - Thornaby - Middlesbrough.

Service 5 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - Stevenage - Grantham - Newark - Lincoln (2 hourly) / Retford (2 hourly) - Doncaster (2 hourly) - Leeds (2 hourly) - Horsforth (2 hourly) - Harrogate (2 hourly) (1 service to Hull).

Service 6 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds (1 service to Huddersfield).

Service 7...
Kings Cross - Peterborough - Wakefield - Leeds - Shipley (2 hourly) Bradford (2 hourly) (1 extension to both Skipton and Harrogate).

A reduced 5 trains per hour service was planned for Saturdays, and a 6 trains per hour service for Sundays.

I've no idea about Hull Trains or Grand Central services

 

[jopsuk]

as a Cambridge resident with family in Stirling, if the "north of Edinburgh" services really are getting a Peterborough stop that's very welcome.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Following the discussions about the proposed services I will try to summarise what is/was planned for May 2020 from the document.

Service 3 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - Peterborough (2 hourly) - Grantham - Newark - Doncaster - York - Northallerton (peak/occasional) Darlington - Durham (2 hourly) - Newcastle (1 extension to Sunderland).

Isn't Stevenage also meant to be a stop for this service, as mentioned in your earlier post? If not, Stevenage would only have 1 train per hour and no LNER connection with Peterborough (using Thameslink from Stevenage to Peterborough takes nearly an hour versus 25-30 minutes on the current York/Newark stoppers, so I can't see that being a popular decision).

 

[47421]

the First Group all standard ORCATS raid 5 TPD KX-Edinburgh due to start by May 2021, but dont think they have ordered the trains yet, so seems unlikely

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/eastcoast.aspx

 

[Senex]

Following the discussions about the proposed services I will try to summarise what is/was planned for May 2020 from the document.

Service 1 (hourly)...
Kings Cross - York (2 hourly) - Newcastle - Edinburgh. [.....]

Does anyone know why the plan is to stop at York only two-hourly, given that a 2-minute stop on the 30mph through lines isn't going to cost more than 3 minutes and York is a significantly busier station than Newcastle? (I believe the reason for the morning Flying Scotsman currently passing through was a publicity one, to manage keeping the overall time down to 4 hours or under.)

The 2017-2018 station user figures seem to be:

Newcastle York
Full 1,419,112 1,219,424
Reduced 6,585,008 7,388,572
Season 752,708 1,225,868
TOTAL 8,756,828 9,833,864
Interchange 390,350 1,141,742

Could it perhaps be that all those extra 200,000 full-fare passengers at Newcastle are on the London services (and that none of the extra three-quarters of a million interchangers at York is a full-fare passenger using a London service)?

[Edited: Sorry — there doesn't seem to be a tab facility or a table facility that I can find.]

 

[43074]

Following the discussions about the proposed services I will try to summarise what is/was planned for May 2020 from the document.
...

Definitely no longer planned for May 2020, the ECML schemes required (Werrington, Huntingdon 4 tracking, Power supply upgrades, Kings Cross etc) to allow it to happen won't have been completed by then...

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone know why the plan is to stop at York only two-hourly, given that a 2-minute stop on the 30mph through lines isn't going to cost more than 3 minutes and York is a significantly busier station than Newcastle? (I believe the reason for the morning Flying Scotsman currently passing through was a publicity one, to manage keeping the overall time down to 4 hours or under.)

The 2017-2018 station user figures seem to be:

Newcastle York
Full 1,419,112 1,219,424
Reduced 6,585,008 7,388,572
Season 752,708 1,225,868
TOTAL 8,756,828 9,833,864
Interchange 390,350 1,141,742

Could it perhaps be that all those extra 200,000 full-fare passengers at Newcastle are on the London services (and that none of the extra three-quarters of a million interchangers at York is a full-fare passenger using a London service)?

[Edited: Sorry — there doesn't seem to be a tab facility or a table facility that I can find.]

York had a lot of high volume local flows such as York - Leeds. I suspect York has a higher flow to London but it’s figures will be higher because of the local traffic which is much greater than Newcastle’s

 

[Aictos]

as a Cambridge resident with family in Stirling, if the "north of Edinburgh" services really are getting a Peterborough stop that's very welcome.

Not forgetting that the Inverness's and Aberdeens used to call at Peterborough for years going back to GNER days until East Coast decided to recast the timetable and have them run non stop between York and London

 

[swt_passenger]

Adding to the useful summary of info in post #43, I reckon from the TAA that it’s the 2 hourly Middlesbrough service that will probably share the future path used by the agreed First Group Edinburgh service?

 

[TheBigD]

Isn't Stevenage also meant to be a stop for this service, as mentioned in your earlier post? If not, Stevenage would only have 1 train per hour and no LNER connection with Peterborough (using Thameslink from Stevenage to Peterborough takes nearly an hour versus 25-30 minutes on the current York/Newark stoppers, so I can't see that being a popular decision).

Yes it is. Post amended.

 

[Starmill]

Does anyone know why the plan is to stop at York only two-hourly, given that a 2-minute stop on the 30mph through lines isn't going to cost more than 3 minutes and York is a significantly busier station than Newcastle? (I believe the reason for the morning Flying Scotsman currently passing through was a publicity one, to manage keeping the overall time down to 4 hours or under.)

I suspect that you have hit on part of the reason here. There is vast marketing appeal in a non-stop service to London. LNER will be able to stick up adverts all over Tyneside saying "8 daily services non-stop to London!!" or whatever, which is a very powerful tool. It will also offer significantly improved Edinburgh to London journey times which are crucial to break the psychological '4hour' barrier. This will be the strategy for the market share increase on Edinburgh to London.

I suspect it is also a case of yield management. What you really want if you're running an Edinburgh to London train is the most Edinburgh to London bookings you can possibly get, as they will have the highest yield. Your second priority is the most Newcastle to London bookings you can. Now admittedly once you've started selling some of those you've excluded that seat from being sold to any more Edinburgh to London passengers, so you might also try to offer some cheap options to fill Edinburgh to Newcastle seats. Removing the call at York (it's only on half of services, remember, it could have been on them all) simplifies yield management and allows a greater focus on Anglo-Scottish traffic. I suspect the main reason for keeping York on the 2 hourly service is to offer competitive trips between various North of England cities and Edinburgh. Somebody clearly thinks that a train will be loaded adequately between Newcastle and London just with passengers boarding at Edinburgh and Newcastle. I hope they're right. It will also dissapoint any trainsplit customers who want to travel on those trains!

 

[Failed Unit]

Just adding to Starmils post. York - Edinburgh will have 3 hourly services.

The TPE,
The LNER semi-fast
The XC

So a lot of areas with direct trains. So I don’t see a huge loss in frequency for not stopping there in terms of heading north (when you consider today’s frequency).

I often change at York for Stevenage. In the new timetable I have a few options so no worse off. I may even route via London if the price / timings are right or use the orcats raider.

The Middlesbrough service will keep 3x LNER services per hour to York.

The biggest losers in terms of direct trains seem to be Grantham and Newark. (If for example you like your direct train from Newark - Edinburgh). But the change at Darlington shouldn’t be a massive issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Middlesbrough service will keep 3x LNER services per hour to York.

Middlesbrough, for me at least, is the surprising winner in this! I had fully expected it to end up as a semi-fast service at best between York and London. So to end up as being almost a fast with just the one intermediate call took me very much by surprise!

 

[E50019]

4 tracking, cancelled no planned date
werrington, underway but several years away from commissioning
York, station throat, de-scoped, now a like for like renewal in 2021/22
Peterborough, being commissioned this month
Doncaster enhancements, platform 0 complete, only like for like renewals planned in CP6
freight (loops) happening, not happening, happening, depends on which way the wind blows it seems..

Kings cross remodelling delayed by a minimum of 12 months..

 

[swt_passenger]

Middlesbrough, for me at least, is the surprising winner in this! I had fully expected it to end up as a semi-fast service at best between York and London. So to end up as being almost a fast with just the one intermediate call took me very much by surprise!

Doesn't really seem to cause much of a problem for York pax, does it? When(if) it happens they'll just have to look for calls at York in the trains to Edinburgh, Newcastle or Middlesbrough, rather than just the first two...

 

[jopsuk]

Not forgetting that the Inverness's and Aberdeens used to call at Peterborough for years going back to GNER days until East Coast decided to recast the timetable and have them run non stop between York and London

Downside of course is that Inverness/Aberdeen passengers will have a slower run with more stops between Edinburgh & London. I can remeber a while that the northbound Chieftain stopped at Peterborough, but the southbound didn't? Wasn't it an NXEC timetable change that saw the Chieftain's stop removed?

 

[Failed Unit]

Downside of course is that Inverness/Aberdeen passengers will have a slower run with more stops between Edinburgh & London. I can remeber a while that the northbound Chieftain stopped at Peterborough, but the southbound didn't? Wasn't it an NXEC timetable change that saw the Chieftain's stop removed?

Yes. Southbound

I remember the drafts of the current timetable would have had the Aberdeen / Inverness on the slower services. But the Scottish government objected. The fast services (x00) were planned to all be 91s not going beyond Edinburgh.

 

[VT 390]

Downside of course is that Inverness/Aberdeen passengers will have a slower run with more stops between Edinburgh & London. I can remeber a while that the northbound Chieftain stopped at Peterborough, but the southbound didn't? Wasn't it an NXEC timetable change that saw the Chieftain's stop removed?

If HS2 phase 2 is built then the ECML timetable should introduce more stops at Peterborough as it will no longer be the quickest route for stations north of York or Leeds as this will improve connectivity from the north to Leicester and Cambridge/Ipswich/Norwich routes.