Future LNER London to Huddersfield services

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Class455, 13 Feb 2019.

  1. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    Hello all,
    Since I started studying in Huddersfield, I was wondering if LNER still planned to introduce direct services between London King's Cross and Huddersfield since they took over the franchise from VTEC (who previously said that they would be introducing this service) until I stumbled across this link tonight, which looks as though LNER are still planning to go ahead with the introduction of direct London to Huddersfield as well as London to Middlesbrough services

    https://www.lner.co.uk/about-us/Better-connected-for-a-better-future/
    I have the following questions about the direct London to Huddersfield services though:
    • Will these trains run at a frequency of every 2 hours or will it be a peak time service only like the Harrogate and Bradford Forster Square routes are currently? (although LNER looks to be planning to increase the frequency to every 2 hours on the aforementioned routes)
    • A long shot here, but when will these services commence? I suspect it won't be until December at the very earliest with all the delays to the Class 800's.
    • What rolling stock is the service most likely to use? Since the platforms at Dewsbury and Huddersfield are most probably too short to fit a 9 car Class 800, I'm guessing that a five car Class 800/2 will be used, and if additional capacity is needed they can always attach another set at Leeds, or when heading away from Kings Cross split the train at Leeds, with the front 5 coaches terminating there and the rear 5 coaches continuing to Dewsbury and Huddersfield. This would only be viable if the service was running every two hours though.
    Any information would be greatly appreciated
     
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  3. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    The Huddersfield train was only ever going to be one per day
     
  4. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Was this a simple extension from Leeds, or would it go direct from Doncaster via Hare Park Junction, Wakefield Kirkgate, Healy Mills, and Mirfield?
     
  5. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Its planned to 2-hourly services to Bradford FS & Harrogate, and then 1 per day each way to Skipton & Huddersfield. I suspect that most if not all will not start until December, and judging by the stop boards that have appeared at Shipley will likely all be 5 car 800/2s. Of course any of this could still change, but as far as I understand it this is currently the plan.
     
  6. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    While selective doors mean physical length of platforms is not an issue, at Huddersfield a nine-car would probably foul points/signals at the ends of the three longest platforms.

    It looks like the plan is to link it with the Skipton service anyway, and using a pair of five-car sets makes sense in light of the numbers of people likely to want a through journey from/to either place, looking at the times of day the current Skipton through trains operate north of Leeds.

    Via Leeds. It was announced it would also serve Dewsbury in 2014 when Stagecoach/Virgin won the franchise.
     
  7. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    It will probably be a token service late evening which will probably get cancelled most of the time when it arrives into Leeds a few minutes late as it would have lost its path and be stuck behind the all station stopper.
     
  8. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    I would hardly describe the current timings of the LNER Skipton services as 'token'.

    The morning train leaves Skipton at 06.55 and Leeds at 07.40 and is in London on the dot of 10am, while the return run is as the 18.03, one of the key evening peak services back to Yorkshire, and is into Skipton at 21.19.

    So if these services, or ones running at around those times, convert to a pair of 800s, with one from/to Skipton and one from/to Huddersfield, as seems likely, they'd hardly qualify as 'token' if the point of the exercise is to give people the best part of a day in London for business or some other reason.

    On a historical note, prior to the launch of East Coast HSTs in 1978, the through portion of three Mk2 coaches that ran from Kings Cross to Huddersfield and Halifax on weekdays was taken as far as Doncaster as part of what was either an 18.03 or 18.04 departure to Leeds.
     
  9. crosscity

    crosscity Member

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    In the early seventies it was the 17.30 from Kings Cross (Doncaster depart 20.03 and Huddersfield arrival at 20.53).

    Interestingly if I caught today's 17.33 from Kings Cross to Harrogate and changed at Leeds, I would get to Huddersfield at 20.23. It wouldn't be much earlier with the new through train if it goes via Leeds. I can't see the point of it myself.
     
  10. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    The vast majority of the passengers from Skipton, Keighley and Shipley on the morning 'Airedale Executive' are local commuters baling at Leeds - very few through passengers, although I found it to be handy on occasion. The Down service is very lightly loaded after Leeds in my experience.
     
  11. Islandexpress

    Islandexpress Member

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    I often use the 06:37 Shipley - KGX and often feel there’s a good amount of through passengers. Free parking at SHY as well, leave it much later there won’t be a space.

    I’d agree about the return journey though. Very few passengers staying on at Leeds, and from my experience there’s a good chance of it being cancelled at Leeds
     
  12. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    That could well be down to the timing of the return service, the more regular service could well see more using them through Leeds.
     
  13. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    Probably BR's original philosophy for its timing - use a set that otherwise just comes straight off Neville Hill to Leeds for commuter capacity, with added bonus of a through London business train for no real extra cost.
     
  14. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    I also remember a time when the current 2330 Leeds service left at 2310 and conveyed a portion for Huddersfield and Halifax unless I am remembering wrong
     
  15. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    It's a franchise requirement for one thing - and Huddersfield is one of the biggest places in the country without any direct train service to London. If Shipley, Keighley and Skipton have been deemed worthy of a daily London service for a good few years now, why shouldn't Dewsbury and Huddersfield get the same?

    You might just as well argue that all LNER London to West Yorkshire trains should start and terminate at Leeds and not bother with frivolous excursions to anywhere else, even if quite a few people live in those places. After all, they can always rely on Northern to get them the rest of the way...
     
  16. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    correct. close thread!

    Shipley, Keighley and Skipton are on an electrified line that can be easily served as an extension of a normal service that would otherwise go straight to the depot form Leeds. This service can be offer at little extra cost, little operational thinking or overall time penalty. They are also fairly affluent areas with people who could conceivably go to London.

    So what if Huddersfield is one of the biggest places without a direct train to London. That means nowt. I doubt Huddersfield has the same sort of higher value person as the Airdale route. Personally I don't think this service is being offered on economic grounds but more on buying off some voluble stake holder / politician and nicking some revenue via the ORCTAS (?) system. Frankly it is a waste of resource that can be used better elsewhere on the LNER route.
     
  17. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    Before you even consider the operational risk of 1 additional service in the morning peak on the fragile TPE timetable.

    Huddersfield has 5 express services to Leeds an hour, easy to change trains.
     
  18. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    the 07:15 Leeds KX is an HST. If the desire was there, this service could start from Hudds now.
     
  19. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

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    You are correct about the lesser earnings of Huddersfield residents. Huddersfield residents have the 2nd lowest wages of towns and cities in the UK.

    Also, the existing service from Huddersfield to Leeds is vastly quicker and more frequent than Skipton-Leeds. Although you have less chance of a seat.

    It's nice that Huddersfield and Dewsbury are getting this service, but isn't a necessity.

    For some reason many Huddersfield residents used to travel to Wakefield Westgate to change there instead of Leeds, but the direct service doesn't seem to exist anymore.

    Huddersfield also has GC serving Mirfield, Brighouse and Halifax which are nearby. Perhaps LNER are looking to try undermine GC?
     
  20. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

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    Would it fit on the platform without fouling the points?
     
  21. Islandexpress

    Islandexpress Member

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    If you’re a Huddersfield resident you can drive to W Westgate and get a 1h45 - 2h00 journey to London, many parts of Huddersfield are easily accessible to Wakefield which of course also has a giant car park. End to end service from Huddersfield to Leeds will include a 10–15 minute reversal in Leeds + 20 minute journey time + a 2h15 journey from Huddersfield to Leeds or vice versa. A near 3h journey, before you get to Hudds station.
     
  22. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    So train service provision should be based on affluence or the availability of 'higher-value persons' (pretty ugly wording, frankly), should it? That's most of the rail network outside the South East gone then...

    I wasn't aware with the demise of Redcar steelworks and lots of other traditional industry that Teesside was exactly rolling in money these days. It already has a sort of London service courtesy of Grand Central and lots of trains to Darlington or York for connections, so why should it get a Middlesbrough-Kings Cross service as well? Or is that another terrible error to buy off someone or other?

    You can play this affluence and/or use of resources game all you want, with pretty much any rail service in the country. Any rational analysis would probably say that running nine-car GWR IETs (or an HST) west of Great Malvern to Hereford is a monumental waste of resources - all the more so if the WMR Birmingham-Hereford service becomes 2tph - but it currently happens five times a day each way. And Hereford passengers can also change at Newport, which is usually a faster option anyway.

    Where else on the East Coast route would this valuable resource - a whole five-car Class 800 - be better used, exactly? In order to take people from and to Huddersfield, it looks likely to be running as part of peak West Yorkshire-London trains, with the legs from and to Huddersfield being provided at the outer ends of the working day - when otherwise it might just be nestling in a depot waiting to start work, or heading straight back there after reaching Leeds.

    So people racking up all those miles in cars when they could be sat in a train all the way doesn't bother you?

    As for the reversal times, let's get real - as in actual Class 800 IET operations real. The morning Carmarthen-Paddington train is allowed seven minutes to arrive at Swansea, couple to another 800 and set off again.

    In the glory days of Stagecoach/Virgin, it was stated that there would be a standard two-hour London-Leeds timing with Class 800 and 801 operations - the Virgin announcement has now vanished but I recall that their exact description of this timing was that it would be "the norm" . So I'd say you're more likely looking at a two-and-a-half hour journey for Huddersfield.

    https://www.railway-technology.com/...the-azuma-virgin-trains-future-fleet-5724990/
     
  23. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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  24. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    What on earth are you talking about? You seem to have a v poor grasp of geography!

    Now we seem to have gone from the x town is the biggest with no service to london and therefore should have one to x town should have direct train to london because a similar soot hole in northern England is getting a service therefore my soot hole must have one!

    Do either of these proposed services do anything to adress the real issues in those towns or are they designed for self important people to feel self important?

    Northern communities need better services they dont need those to be prevented by a poontless london service
     
    Last edited: 16 Feb 2019
  25. darloscott

    darloscott Member

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    When first announced, and still stands to this day, it looked like a very deliberate ploy to annoy Grand Central with regular services to Bradford and Middlesbrough and the token Huddersfield. There is plenty of other places they could ran services to on the East Coast side, but didn't. Such a list could include Cleethorpes, Scarborough and maybe Hexham, but of course none of those feature GC operations. Of course why would you not go after the thorn that is hurting your own operation?
     
  26. Andyh82

    Andyh82 Established Member

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    Since the stopper was split again I’m not sure there is any platform space at Huddersfield for any lengthy dwell time. Finding a path to Huddersfield which then corresponds to a free platform and then a path out again will be tough.
     
  27. jimm

    jimm Established Member

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    What are you on about?

    I know my geography perfectly well, thanks.

    You were the person who started going on about affluence and 'higher-value persons'. Your latest remarks about 'soot-holes' just seem to be more in the same prejudiced vein.

    So you don't like the idea that Huddersfield should have all of one direct train to and from London each day. There's really no need to use derogatory language to say that.

    Perhaps because Dewsbury/Huddersfield (neither of which is directly served by Grand Central), Bradford and Middlesbrough (again not directly served by GC)/Teesside are all rather bigger markets to go at than the places you mention - and the DfT would never allow a franchise to do things that it thought would hurt its premium payments from the TOC. It's not bothered about GC's finances - open access operations come with risks attached.

    Plus pushing some services past Leeds on short runs, mostly in marginal time at the start and end of the day, is a rather different matter from serving the places you mention. An IET could get from Leeds to Bradford or Huddersfield and be back at Leeds in about the time needed to go from York to Scarborough, never mind come back.

    What lengthy dwell time? The train will presumably arrive, get 10 minutes tops in the platform and then head out. In the evening it will drop the passengers, the driver changes ends and off it goes again.

    Someone at Network Rail will have determined that there would be paths available before an announcement was made.
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2019
  28. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    They can move the stoppers to Platforms 5 & 6 while the LNER train uses Platform 4B or the full length of Platform 4. The Manchester stopper train however would have to be retimed when the LNER service is in
     
  29. darloscott

    darloscott Member

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    Could you get a 800 on 4B while a 185 sits in 4A? Although the stopper is due to be joined back up anyway
     
  30. Andyh82

    Andyh82 Established Member

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    4A is currently occupied 0630-0649 and 0657/0710-0803 with Northern services to Leeds

    4B is currently occupied 0614-0628, 0640-0645, 0655-0728 & 0741-0745 with services towards Marsden

    6 is occupied 0603-0703 and 0731-0749 with services to Leeds

    5 only has short occupancies with the Wakefield Kirkgate service every hour but isn't this platform too short for any other service (which I assume would be at least 3 cars in the future)?
     
  31. Class455

    Class455 Member

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    The Northern Service to Leeds can be easily moved to Platform 5, although that can just about fit a Class 150 on it.
     

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