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Future Merseyrail stock: Stadler selected as manufacturer

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Camden

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Strange combination of wording in the same paragraph. The order is for 52 trains, yet the possible follow on order is for up to 60 vehicles. Could be 15 trains, if taking the wording literally, but could also be 60 if taking into account how the order itself has been described. The initial order itself including works and maintenance is worth around £400m, but the order is potentially worth up to £700m, so quite a jump. 60 extra trains would involve them taking over quite a few routes as well as adding new ones, but could also indicate frequency and capacity enhancements. They might get quite a jump in passengers when the 52 trains come into service, especially if accompanied by some of the other work talked about.
 
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WatcherZero

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The rolling stock portion of the order is around £400m (against Merseytravel initial estimate of £400m including about £70m on depot). The rest of the £700m is the depot management, network upgrades and long term fleet maintenance contract optional contract length. The combined depot and rolling stock construction came in at £460m.

edit: For example converting some units to dual voltage will be a priced extra.
 
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Camden

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Yes I've seen that, but previously it was indicated that the £400m win was for 52 trains plus maintenance and necessary mods. The £700m is a new figure. The person above suggests that this is the figure that includes the maintenance, however I am not certain that this is the case.

The way the release is worded "worth up to £700 million" only provides a maximum, not an actual price, suggesting variation in there ie the deal could be worth £400m if 52 trains are bought, but could be up to £700m if more are purchased.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I think the proposed add-on order took the fleet *up to* 60 trains.

It would be unusual to represent articulated trainsets as "vehicles", normally they are seen as a single thing.
 

507021

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I think the proposed add-on order took the fleet *up to* 60 trains.

It would be unusual to represent articulated trainsets as "vehicles", normally they are seen as a single thing.

The press release on Stadler Rail's website states the option available to Merseytravel is for an additional 60 vehicles on top of the existing order for 52 units.

To me, that suggests the option is for an additional 60 carriages, which equates to an additional fifteen units. Even if the new trains will be articulated, they'll still units made up of multiple segments.
 

WatcherZero

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Yes I've seen that, but previously it was indicated that the £400m win was for 52 trains plus maintenance and necessary mods. The £700m is a new figure. The person above suggests that this is the figure that includes the maintenance, however I am not certain that this is the case.

The way the release is worded "worth up to £700 million" only provides a maximum, not an actual price, suggesting variation in there ie the deal could be worth £400m if 52 trains are bought, but could be up to £700m if more are purchased.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...nder-for-new-fleet-and-depot-worth-up-to-700m

The tender includes four principal agreements with an estimated value ranging between £200m and £700m, comprising a new fleet and maintenance depot.

The first of these includes a manufacture and supply agreement (MSA) for the design, manufacture, testing, commissioning and supply of the new fleet. This will require the successful bidder to both provide details of the units in mock-ups and to supply a cab simulator to assist with driver training.

The second agreement will see a train availability and reliability agreement (TARA) for the provision of running, heavy maintenance, servicing and cleaning services in the fleet, particularly to ensure that it complies with the Merseyrail Electrics timetable and delivers maximum value for money.
The successful bidder will be responsible for the long-term running and heavy maintenance of the fleet, as well as to make future modifications to units – such as the conversion of the traction power supply from the third rail DC system to an a dual voltage system that uses both third rail and overhead line electric traction power systems.

A maintenance sub-contract (MSC) makes up the third agreement, whose scope includes all maintenance and repair works as well as in-depot servicing and cleaning on the existing fleet, necessary to meet Merseyrail’s existing maintenance and customer-facing obligations “pending the redelivery of the existing fleet to Angel Trains Ltd” – alongside a “phased introduction” of the new fleet.

The last agreement, a depot construction contract (DCC), will include the design, construction, fit-out, commissioning and completion of depot facilities in which the new fleet will be maintained under the TARA. The new maintenance facilities are likely to* include a shed covering three inspection rotes with pits, cranes and/or jacks and test facilities, as well as a train exterior wash plant and specialist cleaning area.

The company refers to its value as 'upto £700m' because that's over the lifetime including optional contract length extensions. If for example it was terminated early during a contract review period then the value to Stadler would be smaller. And yes also includes contract options on further units but nothing like a near doubling of the fleet. The 15 train figure is accurate and probably represents about £115-130m more potential revenue to Stadler including maintenance, if it was 60 more trains it would have an additional contract value in excess of £500m.

If you go back to a year earlier the depot and fleet construction alone was indeed estimated to be around £400m it came in at £460m.

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2016/12/17-stadler-wins-contract-to-build.html
 
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Old Yard Dog

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I've just had a look at the images of the new Merseyrail Electrics trains currently on order

http://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/new-trains.aspx
New state-of-the-art trains are set to be introduced on to the Merseyrail network by 2020, replacing the current fleet, which is approaching 40 years old. This follows the decision made on 16 December 2016 by the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority, which authorised the procurement of the new trains. The £460 million project is being managed by local transport executive, Merseytravel.
My first impression is that the seats look unbelievably narrow making it very difficult for two people larger than stick insects to sit comfortably together. I believe this is to make the aisles wider to make more room for standing passengers.

This decrease in comfort strikes me as a very backward step. The Merseyrail trains that I use seldom have standing passengers except between Kirkdale & Sandhills and Liverpool Central on match days.

Merseyrail Electrics, to their credit, replaced 3+2 seating with well spaced 2+2 seats when they refurbished the 507s and 508s a few years ago. It is sad to see them now going in the other direction. But at least the layout is better than those awful sardine cans with their sideways seats on the London Overground.
 
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73001

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I hadn't really noticed that before now. I suppose you can get two rows of standees now for the full length; currently people tend to stand around the doorways so this might encourage them to move down the train, safe in the knowledge that they'll be able to get out again when they reach their stop. The 507/508 seats are spacious though... I travelled on 8 trains on Saturday and these seats seemed the most generous.
 
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