Future of 22x Units

[Bosch91]

The fuel usage is also compared on a per seat basis, as such they look bad compared to a 7 or 8 coach HST. Like many complaints, if they were longer units then this would likely be better.

Agreed but longer units require more engines so surely it wouldn’t change

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed but longer units require more engines so surely it wouldn’t change

I think it's about number of seats overall for fuel consumption. As there are fewer seats on 220/221 units, it does make them a bit more wasteful than they need to be.

 

[greatvoyager]

Shame we'll probably never see a repeat of the Virgin blockade buster services where 3 units worked in multiple to create a 15-car train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shame we'll probably never see a repeat of the Virgin blockade buster services where 3 units worked in multiple to create a 15-car train.

Depending how the RRB accessibility thing goes, I can see us seeing a return to this sort of thing.

 

[Bosch91]

I think it's about number of seats overall for fuel consumption. As there are fewer seats on 220/221 units, it does make them a bit more wasteful than they need to be.

I’m sure something could be done to up capacity on the units

 

[greatvoyager]

Depending how the RRB accessibility thing goes, I can see us seeing a return to this sort of thing.

It would certainly help capacity.

 

[greatvoyager]

I’m sure something could be done to up capacity on the units

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

 

[The Ham]

Agreed but longer units require more engines so surely it wouldn’t change

Whilst you have more engines you also don't have more surface area at the front so the trains are more aerodynamic so need less power per seat to keep them moving at speed.

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed but longer units require more engines so surely it wouldn’t change

22x trains are overpowered and can keep time with an engine out.

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst you have more engines you also don't have more surface area at the front so the trains are more aerodynamic so need less power per seat to keep them moving at speed.

A very important point. There's little air resistance from the side skins of additional intermediate cars when running at speed. Most of the resistance comes from nose and tail effects. An amazing fact I learned was that to keep a typical southern emu going at a steady 60mph on level track, only about another 400kW is required to add another 4 cars to the formation, to cover its additional air and rolling resistance. Clearly more than that is required to accelerate the extra weight and climb gradients, but that you can add around another 400 person capacity for the power output of a decent car is astounding.

22x trains are overpowered and can keep time with an engine out.

Particularly 220s and 222s which aren't encumbered by the extra 8 tonnes or so per car of the heavy tilt/ex-tilt bogies.

 

[greatvoyager]

A very important point. There's little air resistance from the side skins of additional intermediate cars when running at speed. Most of the resistance comes from nose and tail effects. An amazing fact I learned was that to keep a typical southern emu going at a steady 60mph on level track, only about another 400kW is required to add another 4 cars to the formation, to cover its additional air and rolling resistance. Clearly more than that is required to accelerate the extra weight and climb gradients, but that you can add around another 400 person capacity for the power output of a decent car is astounding.

Particularly 220s and 222s which aren't encumbered by the extra 8 tonnes or so per car of the heavy tilt/ex-tilt bogies.

Too true.

 

[gingertom]

According to Wiki (bad move perhaps) all the 22x series are equipped with rheostatic braking with the resistors mounted on the roof. Does anyone here know if those fitted to a 222 are better protected than the 220/221? If so it would make them suitable for use by XC on the Dawlish route...

 

[greatvoyager]

According to Wiki (bad move perhaps) all the 22x series are equipped with rheostatic braking with the resistors mounted on the roof. Does anyone here know if those fitted to a 222 are better protected than the 220/221? If so it would make them suitable for use by XC on the Dawlish route...

As far as I'm aware they are the same, but not completely sure. It would've made sense if they had given protection to them though.

 

[jazzy]

Coming late to this thread, does anyone know if the vibration issues with the CC Voyagers can be 'cured'? Can they be re-engineered with better isolation / vibration management?

 

[greatvoyager]

Coming late to this thread, does anyone know if the vibration issues with the CC Voyagers can be 'cured'? Can they be re-engineered with better isolation / vibration management?

As a regular traveller on XC voyagers, I can't say I've noticed that problem in all honesty.

 

[jazzy]

As a regular traveller on XC voyagers, I can't say I've noticed that problem in all honesty.

Maybe I'm just fussy! I did use to work (for a brief period) in automotive vibration management so maybe that's given me increased awareness of it. Having said that, friends have agreed with me on feeling the vibrations from Voyagers...

 

[greatvoyager]

Maybe I'm just fussy! I did use to work (for a brief period) in automotive vibration management so maybe that's given me increased awareness of it. Having said that, friends have agreed with me on feeling the vibrations from Voyagers...

Fair enough, I'm probably just used to it as most of my life I've travelled on voyagers, which to me vibrate less than other trains I've used. More than that, I'm quite fond of all 22x units generally.
They probably could do a reengine programme, but it would depend on the cost.

 

[squizzler]

They probably could do a reengine programme, but it would depend on the cost.

No. Just no. The drive chain and running gear are the better side of the coin (the flip side being the accomodation). If what is below the sole bar is no longer considered fit for purpose then one must simply replace them with something better.

 

[greatvoyager]

No. Just no. The drive chain and running gear are the better side of the coin (the flip side being the accomodation). If what is below the sole bar is no longer considered fit for purpose then one must simply replace them with something better.

Fair enough, although I don't think their bad in terms of the interior, they just aren't long enough.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If there's one thing I've learnt is it doesn't matter how old a train is - it's if it gets us from A to B and the Voyagers do just that!

As much as I enjoy the Class 80x stock, I wouldn't be entirely enthusiastic about 80x stock for CrossCountry as a new set of frequent seat reservation issues is asking for chaos - especially given that XC has some of the longest distance journeys in the UK.

More double Voyagers and extra 5-car instead of 4-car workings plus a refurbishment I'd be happy with. However the current Voyager interior colours still look very modern to me !

 

[greatvoyager]

If there's one thing I've learnt is it doesn't matter how old a train is - it's if it gets us from A to B and the Voyagers do just that!

As much as I enjoy the Class 80x stock, I wouldn't be entirely enthusiastic about 80x stock for CrossCountry as a new set of frequent seat reservation issues is asking for chaos - especially given that XC has some of the longest distance journeys in the UK.

More double Voyagers and extra 5-car instead of 4-car workings plus a refurbishment I'd be happy with. However the current Voyager interior colours still look very modern to me !

Totally agree.

 

[gallafent]

[…] for the power output of a decent car[…]

400kW is definitely a pretty decent car, out of reach of most! (That's 536BHP in old money!…)

 

[greatvoyager]

Particularly 220s and 222s which aren't encumbered by the extra 8 tonnes or so per car of the heavy tilt/ex-tilt bogies.

Good point.

 

[greatvoyager]

If there's one thing I've learnt is it doesn't matter how old a train is - it's if it gets us from A to B and the Voyagers do just that!

As much as I enjoy the Class 80x stock, I wouldn't be entirely enthusiastic about 80x stock for CrossCountry as a new set of frequent seat reservation issues is asking for chaos - especially given that XC has some of the longest distance journeys in the UK.

More double Voyagers and extra 5-car instead of 4-car workings plus a refurbishment I'd be happy with. However the current Voyager interior colours still look very modern to me !

I just wish the interior looked more XC than Virgin.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I just wish the interior looked more XC than Virgin.

Yes. I remember suggesting that to them right back in July 2014 and XC had no plans to refurbish the Voyager fleet. I can just imagine now: the walls painted white and the seats dark brown or the same seats as the XC HST's.

A customer information system like in the middle of the XC Mark 3's on the Voyagers would go very nice .

 

[greatvoyager]

Yes. I remember suggesting that to them right back in July 2014 and XC had no plans to refurbish the Voyager fleet. I can just imagine now: the walls painted white and the seats dark brown or the same seats as the XC HST's.

A customer information system like in the middle of the XC Mark 3's on the Voyagers would go very nice .

I agree with that.

 

[Jozhua]

Maybe I'm just fussy! I did use to work (for a brief period) in automotive vibration management so maybe that's given me increased awareness of it. Having said that, friends have agreed with me on feeling the vibrations from Voyagers...

Fair enough, I'm probably just used to it as most of my life I've travelled on voyagers, which to me vibrate less than other trains I've used. More than that, I'm quite fond of all 22x units generally.
They probably could do a reengine programme, but it would depend on the cost.

haha, Voyagers do vibrate somewhat less than other units on the Network, or at least the general noise/vibration levels are a lot more tolerable than that of say a 153, 156 or pacer! Sometimes when they're around tickover they go quite shaky, when at standstill especially. Tbh, I don't mind too much as the noise levels aren't too high.

They might re-engine, although it probably depends on reliability!

 

[greatvoyager]

haha, Voyagers do vibrate somewhat less than other units on the Network, or at least the general noise/vibration levels are a lot more tolerable than that of say a 153, 156 or pacer! Sometimes when they're around tickover they go quite shaky, when at standstill especially. Tbh, I don't mind too much as the noise levels aren't too high.

They might re-engine, although it probably depends on reliability!

Completely agree.

 

[gingertom]

They might re-engine, although it probably depends on reliability!

Cummins don't have a compliant version of the 19QSK. Another supplier will need to be sourced and whatever engine is chosen will need to be made to fit. The exhaust aftertreatment takes up space and you'll need a tank for the AdBlue. Not an easy swap. It will come down to money- if the leasing company can hire them out and make money out of a re-engine programme, it'll get done. If not, it's razor blades, which would be a pity as there's a lot of life left in these.

 

[greatvoyager]

Cummins don't have a compliant version of the 19QSK. Another supplier will need to be sourced and whatever engine is chosen will need to be made to fit. The exhaust aftertreatment takes up space and you'll need a tank for the AdBlue. Not an easy swap. It will come down to money- if the leasing company can hire them out and make money out of a re-engine programme, it'll get done. If not, it's razor blades, which would be a pity as there's a lot of life left in these.

Good point.