Future Of Caledonian Sleeper Class 86s/87

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by DBS92042, 28 Apr 2019.

  1. DBS92042

    DBS92042 Member

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    With the MK5 stock being introduced tonight on some sleeper services, it won't be long until 86101, 86401, and 87002 are handed back to the AC Group. Once they have been handed back, does anyone know what is likely to happen to them as I have heard rumours that an export to Bulgaria is possible? Or will they be used for charter tours in the UK?
    Any information will be greatly appreciated
     
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  3. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

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    What would stop them continuing to do ECS? They don’t need ETS to do that. I know the Mk5a sets that TPE have driving trailers but didn’t think the sleeper sets did.

    EDIT: Delner couplers. That would be it then.
     
  4. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    The new coaches only have dellner couplers, so need locos fitted with those couplers to haul them even on ECS. Afaik only Rail Operations Group 37s, 57/3s, Caledonian Sleeper 73s and GBRF 92s have those couplers.
     
  5. ic31420

    ic31420 Member

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    What is the case for the fitting of dellners to this stock? Seems to introduce all sorts of operational headaches.
     
  6. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Unlikely to happen, but couldn't they use coupling adaptors?
     
  7. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    I'd be very surprised if there was any case for fitting dellners to the 86s and 87002. Won't cause too many headaches once the 92 and 73 fleet is up to full strength as the 73s, 86s, 87002 and the 90s won't be needed any more so all locos used will be compatible with the Mark 5s. 73s could work the Glasgow ECS and the Carstairs - Edinburgh section of the lowlander if needed too.

    Theoretically yes but I agree it probably won't happen.
     
  8. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    The end of an era then. It'll be a real shame if the last of the Electric Scots goes abroad.

    Though on a positive note, I'm looking forward to the new era if the Mk5s. They do look a step-up from the Mk3s.
     
  9. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    No bumps and shunts in the night if I’ve interpreted the PR correctly, which if so would clearly be an improvement for passengers.
     
  10. Suraggu

    Suraggu Member

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    ETS is required for the wheelslip protection systems so that is a requirement along with the Dellner couplers.
     
  11. Roast Veg

    Roast Veg Member

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    The ACLG almost certainly has no plans to send them to Bulgaria or Hungary, before their use on CS they were charter locos and in the medium term they will go back to that. They've earned a very tidy sum for the ACLG which has been going to restoring 89001, and I can't see them not continuing to preserve their existing locos.
     
  12. Drumtochty

    Drumtochty Member

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    The Rail Operations Group 37s and the 57/3s have their Delinier couplings at a different height and cannot be used on the new CS stock, they also have the alternators at the wrong voltage.

    You could not make this up as people would say that would never happen.
     
  13. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    Nothing surprises me!
     
  14. ic31420

    ic31420 Member

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    There is a farce in the brewing / making somewhere.

    I suppose the train could be rescued by any hook/buffer fitted loco from front as the 92/73 would act as a translator.

    Will the stock brakes come off without ETH?
     
  15. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    That is a question to which I am very keen to find an answer...
     
  16. Roast Veg

    Roast Veg Member

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    Not sure about the height difference, weren't the 57/3s "fixed" so that they could couple to units of different heights after it was discovered they only fit with Voyagers and Pendolinos? Certainly the ETS load requirements are through the roof and any future loco that hauls them in passenger service will have to have an extremely powerful supply, but we live in hope that the brakes can still be released without power, else the WCML might become a little hairy one day.
     
  17. Drumtochty

    Drumtochty Member

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    Roast Veg, those that claim to know on this forum, advise that the Delinier coupling equiped 92 can hinge it's Delinier down to make the old fashioned coupling available for a pull by a "normal loco". No such statement has been made about this facility on the delinier equiped 73 locos, are you advising here that you know the Delinier coupling equiped 73 can hinge down thier Delinier coupling like the 92 to allow for a pull from a "normal loco".

    The general feeling on the forum by those that claim to know, not me to make that clear, is the is that the Delinier equiped 57/3's cannot latch to the new stock. Are you saying that you know that the 57/3 locos equiped with delinier couplings can indeed physically latch to the new stock. As you say the electics and other services are a different matter.

    Or are you saying the delinier coupling equiped 57/3 "may be able to" rather than "can" latch to the new stock.
     
  18. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    It’s Dellner!!!

    If the 73s and 92s can’t hinge the Dellner out of the way, then how have they hauled the existing sleeper stock since they were converted?
     
  19. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    Class 73 and 92 Dellner couplers drop out of the way to reveal a conventional drawhook. I can confirm due to the height of the headstock the only locos that can physically couple to the CS Mk5s are the 73s and 92s,
     
  20. Maxfly

    Maxfly Member

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    Class 73’s dellners hangs down when not in use, reminds me of how ROG’s dellner 37’s are fitted although I’m sure they are probably different.
     
  21. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Is it not possible to use a two-hinge system (with locking when required) on swinging Dellners or a slide up/down (again with a locking mechanism) so as to couple to stock with Dellner couplings at different heights?
     
  22. captainbigun

    captainbigun Member

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    Fundamental here is that the horizontal forces on the coupling need to remain horizontal. As soon as you start moving the coupler head up and down you start to introduce forces at strange angles which neither the coupler or drag box are designed to cope with.
     
  23. Roast Veg

    Roast Veg Member

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    Installed by different companies I believe, some of the 37s we definitely done by UKRL in Leicester.
    Ah, I assumed that the height would at least be the same as either the WCML stock or the majority of EMUs. I suppose there's no point matching it if nothing would be able to supply the power in any case.
     
  24. 507 001

    507 001 Established Member

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    22E049CA-0493-486A-AC6C-5439F5C2E1BF.jpeg

    Note the Dellner head pointing at the track below the coupling hook...

     
  25. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    Having the Dellner coupling raised on the 73s and 92s restricts the loco to 5mph unless it’s coupled to something. I assume this is something to do with the weight of it only being supported at one end.
     
  26. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    Can we please stay on topic and discuss the future of 86101/86401/87002!

    My understanding is they will be exported but a final railtour using one or all of them is on the cards.
     
  27. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    Oh well question answered, end of thread.
     
  28. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    aren't the owned by the AC locomotive group? Why would they sell their operational preserved locos? Does that not negate the point of their existence? (unless they get them back afterwards)
     
    Last edited: 2 May 2019
  29. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    Been described as ETL commercial assets by the ACLG. Bulmarket have certainly gained traffic in the last six months.
     
  30. Rhydgaled

    Rhydgaled Established Member

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    Aye, as a preservation group I would hope ACLG won't sell the locos in question. A lease to an overseas operator, as long as it doesn't require modifications to the locos that make them unsuitable for a later return to the UK, might be sensible if there is no short-term prospect of railtour (or other) work for them here. That way when the lease expires the locos can be returned to the UK and are still reasonably safe.

    I have a feeling I should know this, but what does ETL stand for in this context?
     
  31. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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