Future of EMR's 158s

[Jim Jehosofat]

There are now so many F&S reports of services on the Eastern stretch. Shame some catering can’t be restored at least as far as Ely on selected trains.

100% in agreement. Bring back Dr Death and his trolley on the 0552 from Norwich!

 

[dk1]

Yeah, just as if it was all TPE right now then it wouldn’t matter if EMR had a shortage of stock/staff - there’s an element of swings and roundabouts - bottom line is that we surely can’t keep running parallel hourly services over the same hundred and fifty mile round trip west of Sheffield, with different types of trains that the staff on board the other service can’t be allocated to, meaning either tiny or huge waits at Lime Street, once a westbound service becomes just slightly late then it becomes Terminated at Piccadilly instead because by the time it gets to Merseyside it’ll not be able to meet its own eastbound path - guaranteed disruption, rather than everything stepping back an extra thirty minutes so that there’s sufficient time to lay over without occupying a platform in Liverpool for effectively an hour



Genuinely, what demand is there from Warrington to Peterborough? Or are you just listing two stops and assuming that there must Be a lot of demand between them?

I’m not saying there’s “no” demand, of course there’ll sometimes be someone who genuinely needs to get between two far flung places that coincidentally have some direct trains, but we can’t run a national network for journeys that a handful of people make annually

I certainly know at least three people so moved from East Anglia to Sheffield around twenty years ago as Norwich Union/Aviva opened some big offices here and needed experienced staff to train the Yorkshire natives, but it’s not like they make the journey back to see their parents on a daily - or even monthly - basis - I wouldn’t base revenue of a dozen DMUs a day on a handful of people making a handful of journeys a year

Run a good service each side of the East Midlands and if it’s worth linking them to then so be it but similarly if it makes more sense with Norwich trains terminating in Nottingham or Stoke or Matlock then that’ll benefit a tiny number/ inconvenience a tiny number/ be of no relevance to 99% of the population

I never assume anything. I was just using various journey possibilities without a change along the route. I’ve been involved & interested with the Liverpool to Norwich route since it began once daily in 1985 hauled by class 31s & running through to/from Yarmouth to the launch of the ‘Express’ network in 1988 then from the early 90s when the likes of Cambridge, Ipswich, Birmingham, Blackpool & Barrow started to go & it was concentrated predominantly on Norwich to Liverpool. There have been many studies done over the years & one of the most recent proved that numbers crossing Nottingham was higher than many thought. I see no need to break up what has been a long-standing & mostly successful service. I know & witness many who make good use of these direct trains me being one of them. Five cars on the western section with 3 continuing east would seem a perfect solution going forward.

100% in agreement. Bring back Dr Death and his trolley on the 0552 from Norwich!

Now you’re talking. Several fabulous characters back in those Rightline catering days. Some lasted longer than others but all with a tale to tell.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There are (3 I think) different engined versions of the 158 with EMR which would limit how many can be reformed in to 3 car units.

I wouldn't imagine engines are a big problem these days. I read elsewhere that at least one GWR unit has received different model engines to those it was delivered with. I believe though that Cummins NT855s are very obsolete ouitside the railway industry. Needs to be interaction between the Roscos, TOCs and DfT - but won't get past Whitehall bean counters if money is to be spent !!!

 

[507020]

If you ask me, the most sensible thing to do would be to transfer some 185s to EMR (given that they already operate 360s from St Pancras to Corby) and for them to retain the Lime Street - Nottingham portion, but for Greater Anglia take over the Nottingham - Norwich portion and run it with 755s, of which there are some spare, but I do appreciate the vast amount of training this would require.

But to confirm, is the intention now that all EMR REGIONAL services EXCEPT the Lime Street - Norwich will be run with 170s and that the Lime Street - Norwich will be run exclusively with 158s, not 170s or 156s (the 156s being transferred to Northern) and how many 158s are now intended to be retained by EMR for this purpose?

 

[50002Superb]

Coming from and living in Nottingham the one thing that always strikes me with this service is how heavily populated it is by the 18-25 year old demographic travelling between universities and home.

 

[dk1]

But to confirm, is the intention now that all EMR REGIONAL services EXCEPT the Lime Street - Norwich will be run with 170s and that the Lime Street - Norwich will be run exclusively with 158s, not 170s or 156s (the 156s being transferred to Northern) and how many 158s are now intended to be retained by EMR for this purpose?

Nothing has been officially confirmed regarding the 158 fleet yet in terms of size & formation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coming from and living in Nottingham the one thing that always strikes me with this service is how heavily populated it is by the 18-25 year old demographic travelling between universities and home.

I think there would be significant suppressed demand on older car owners due to the, well, rubbishness of the service.

 

[D365]

Coming from and living in Nottingham the one thing that always strikes me with this service is how heavily populated it is by the 18-25 year old demographic travelling between universities and home.

Universities in the Midlands (and Yorkshire) are an ideal location for students coming in from across the counties.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you ask me, the most sensible thing to do would be to transfer some 185s to EMR (given that they already operate 360s from St Pancras to Corby) and for them to retain the Lime Street - Nottingham portion, but for Greater Anglia take over the Nottingham - Norwich portion and run it with 755s, of which there are some spare, but I do appreciate the vast amount of training this would require.

But to confirm, is the intention now that all EMR REGIONAL services EXCEPT the Lime Street - Norwich will be run with 170s and that the Lime Street - Norwich will be run exclusively with 158s, not 170s or 156s (the 156s being transferred to Northern) and how many 158s are now intended to be retained by EMR for this purpose?

All we know is that EMR are retaining the entire service and the entire 158 fleet (which seems like it is going to be used on Nottingham - Liverpool because of the corridor connections). Formations are not known.

The original consultation was to run the service Nottingham - Liverpool with the Norwich end doing Norwich - Matlock. However the timetable consultation is in the long grass and was part of the ECML "2022" timetable changes that were abandoned. I understand they needed to alter things to path the Norwich service over the ECML, other changes would have impacted Leicester - Grimsby and most of Lincolnshire. Now all bets are off.

 

[tbtc]

All we know is that EMR are retaining the entire service and the entire 158 fleet (which seems like it is going to be used on Nottingham - Liverpool because of the corridor connections). Formations are not known

Pre-Covid, how many 158s would be used each day on “Provincial” routes other than the Liverpool to Norwich?

In the back of my mind I’d like to think that at least some of the Skegness diagrams warranted a more comfortable long distance unit, but being Yorkshire based it’s not a service I see often to know (and, let’s face it, there’s a huge gap between what an enthusiast thinks a service warrants and what a TOC actually provides!) - AIUI EMT/EMR certainly weren’t wasting faster DMUs on small/short routes in the way that LM got such a generous share of the ex-Central split that they had three coach Turbostars shuttling from Walsall to New Street whilst EMT could only use two coach units on the Liverpool to Norwich service that had had five coaches at rules under Central

(Genuinely curious as to whether the 170s freeing up DMUs on other routes will shake a handful free or EMR will need to take some from other TOCs if they want to run five/six coaches west of Nottingham… I’d certainly argue that Northern are proportionately a bit “top heavy” in faster/medium distance DMUs and it’d be able to afford to “donate” some to EMR because the larger quantity of 156s leaving the Midlands are more valuable to Northern… whether any TOC would want second hand units from Northern or the stigma of being seen to take them is another story though!)

 

[Failed Unit]

Pre-Covid, how many 158s would be used each day on “Provincial” routes other than the Liverpool to Norwich?

In the back of my mind I’d like to think that at least some of the Skegness diagrams warranted a more comfortable long distance unit, but being Yorkshire based it’s not a service I see often to know (and, let’s face it, there’s a huge gap between what an enthusiast thinks a service warrants and what a TOC actually provides!) - AIUI EMT/EMR certainly weren’t wasting faster DMUs on small/short routes in the way that LM got such a generous share of the ex-Central split that they had three coach Turbostars shuttling from Walsall to New Street whilst EMT could only use two coach units on the Liverpool to Norwich service that had had five coaches at rules under Central

(Genuinely curious as to whether the 170s freeing up DMUs on other routes will shake a handful free or EMR will need to take some from other TOCs if they want to run five/six coaches west of Nottingham… I’d certainly argue that Northern are proportionately a bit “top heavy” in faster/medium distance DMUs and it’d be able to afford to “donate” some to EMR because the larger quantity of 156s leaving the Midlands are more valuable to Northern… whether any TOC would want second hand units from Northern or the stigma of being seen to take them is another story though!)

It is an interesting question maybe one for a different thread.

In Lincolnshire 158s seem to have certain times they were diagrammed such as the first train of the morning from Peterborough - Lincoln. I assumed that was so the 158 could get to Nottingham to form half of a Nottingham - Liverpool service. However it seemed to be pot luck if you got a 156 or 158 on a service (pre-covid and now). It seems EMR take a 15x to mean either a 156 or 158 hence why you see so many on the Norwich - Liverpool. They don't need the speed of course.

Skegness as you mention in the summer was 2x 15x, but again they could be 156 or 158 or combination.

I understand that if EMR gets all the 170s they are expecting they will have enough stock to at least run Norwich - Liverpoool at 4 car as well as hourly frequency on most routes the originally planned. Does it mean that Grimsby - Leicester won't be leaving people behind if an hourly frequency happens? Who knows, as better frequency could = more passengers. Personally I still think things will be tight with 170s / 158s but at least they have something to build on and can keep their eye out for other 158s / 170s as they are released from other operators in the future.

 

[TheBigD]

Pre-Covid, how many 158s would be used each day on “Provincial” routes other than the Liverpool to Norwich?

EMR have 26 x 158, of which 23 are required for service.

Liverpool to Norwich requires 12 units, Liverpool to Nottingham requires 7 units*, leaving 4 for other duties. In reality the 156/8 fleet was pretty interchangeable, and often 153s were also subbing on the Liverpool to Nottingham section.

* Generally it was 2 x 158 from Liverpool to Nottingham were the front 158 continued to Norwich, the rear 158 detached and shunted, before attaching the the incoming Norwich to Liverpool and departing around 75 minutes later. Units were often swapped out at Nottingham if needed, and they also interworked on to other routes at certain times of the day. EG, 1629 arrival from Liverpool split at Nottingham with the front unit going forward to Norwich and the rear forming the 1650 to Derby (and then the 1742 Derby to Crewe).

I understand that if EMR gets all the 170s they are expecting they will have enough stock to at least run Norwich - Liverpoool at 4 car as well as hourly frequency on most routes the originally planned. Does it mean that Grimsby - Leicester won't be leaving people behind if an hourly frequency happens? Who knows, as better frequency could = more passengers. Personally I still think things will be tight with 170s / 158s but at least they have something to build on and can keep their eye out for other 158s / 170s as they are released from other operators in the future.

When/if EMR get their full compliment of 170s (44 units) there will be enough for everything to be formed of 170 except for Liverpool to Nottingham, which was originally destined for another operator.
The original plans allowed for 38 from the 44 units to be diagrammed, everything being a single 2 or 3 car 170 except for Skegness in the summer which would of had 2 of its 5 diagrams booked for double units.
The non release of 12 x 171s from Southern and their replacement with 12 x 170s from TfW also means EMR will have 6 more 3 car 170s and 6 less 2 car 170s than before, 17 x 3 and 27 x 2 instead of 11 x 3 and 33 x 2.

The retention of the Liverpool-Nottingham and the 158s means that on paper, EMR will have a surplus of up to 12 units, depending on whether some 158s get split and reformed in to 3 car units.

 

[RailWonderer]

100% in agreement. Bring back Dr Death and his trolley on the 0552 from Norwich!

Am I missing a joke, who is Dr Death?
I think it would be better to run doubled up 158s or 170s making 4 or 5 cars on every Norwich - Liverpool service rather than 3 car units. That way you can still split at Nottingham and restart the route in case of delays.

 

[507020]

Am I missing a joke, who is Dr Death?
I think it would be better to run doubled up 158s or 170s making 4 or 5 cars on every Norwich - Liverpool service rather than 3 car units. That way you can still split at Nottingham and restart the route in case of delays.

You might be missing the point that 3 car 158s could run 5 or 6 cars instead of 2 or 4

 

[dk1]

Am I missing a joke, who is Dr Death?
I think it would be better to run doubled up 158s or 170s making 4 or 5 cars on every Norwich - Liverpool service rather than 3 car units. That way you can still split at Nottingham and restart the route in case of delays.

They are supposed to be 5-cars with hopefully 3 continuing to Norwich the same as they do today attaching/detaching at Nottingham. EMR hoping to make some 3-cars up when extra 158s become available.

Dr Death was a Norwich based catering host back in the day.

 

[fgwrich]

They are supposed to be 5-cars with hopefully 3 continuing to Norwich the same as they do today attaching/detaching at Nottingham. EMR hoping to make some 3-cars up when extra 158s become available.

Dr Death was a Norwich based catering host back in the day.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, there's a few legendary recordings of his PA announcements around somewhere

 

[dk1]

If it's the one I'm thinking of, there's a few legendary recordings of his PA announcements around somewhere

My mind a little hazy on him. Funny days.

 

[DDB]

EMR have 26 x 158, of which 23 are required for service.

Liverpool to Norwich requires 12 units, Liverpool to Nottingham requires 7 units*, leaving 4 for other duties. In reality the 156/8 fleet was pretty interchangeable, and often 153s were also subbing on the Liverpool to Nottingham section.

* Generally it was 2 x 158 from Liverpool to Nottingham were the front 158 continued to Norwich, the rear 158 detached and shunted, before attaching the the incoming Norwich to Liverpool and departing around 75 minutes later. Units were often swapped out at Nottingham if needed, and they also interworked on to other routes at certain times of the day. EG, 1629 arrival from Liverpool split at Nottingham with the front unit going forward to Norwich and the rear forming the 1650 to Derby (and then the 1742 Derby to Crewe).

So if I understand it correctly with the 158 stock they already have they could split 4 "spares" to insert into others to make 8 sets of 3 cars. This would mean they could run all of the Liverpool to Nottingham section as 5 cars which would improve that part without needing extra units.
It would mean the Nottingham to Norwich would remain as 2 cars as now. If in the future they can get more they could then swap the usage of the 3 cars and 2 cars around to get 3 cars Nottingham to Norwich.

I assume that the long cross country nature of the route means there aren't a subgroup of diagrams that are peak times that would allow a mixed fleet of 3 car and 2 cars to be diagrammed such that the limited number of 3 cars could be matched to peak demand?

 

[station_road]

If the 158s are staying, they may need to be refurbished at some point (or at least painted and new seat covers) - so you need some spare units to cover while that happens

 

[507020]

If the 158s are staying, they may need to be refurbished at some point (or at least painted and new seat covers) - so you need some spare units to cover while that happens

I’m sure the 158s will receive exactly the same refurbishment as the 170s, 171s and 360s which EMR now operates.

 

[dk1]

Wasn't there talk not too long ago about scrapping the Liverpool end, and instead terminating in Piccadilly main shed to avoid the Castlefield issue? What happened to that idea in the end? I'd got it in my head that the changes to TPE's Cleethorpes (running through to Liverpool instead of the airport) were to compensate for the loss of the EMR service.

The Castlefield corridor isn’t the issue it was originally now some service alterations have occurred. The Ordsall chord now looks very underused indeed. On the plus side, Sheffield gains a half-hourly direct service to Merseyside.

 

[raetiamann]

As I understand the situation, there is no allocated home for the 222s, as and when the 810s arrive with EMR. These might offer what's needed for the Nottm-Liverpool journeys and already 5 cars. EMR is used to the vehicles maintainence and would offer a slightly quicker journey.

This would of course mean either splitting the service at Nottm, or running these right through to Norwich.

 

[fgwrich]

As I understand the situation, there is no allocated home for the 222s, as and when the 810s arrive with EMR. These might offer what's needed for the Nottm-Liverpool journeys and already 5 cars. EMR is used to the vehicles maintainence and would offer a slightly quicker journey.

This would of course mean either splitting the service at Nottm, or running these right through to Norwich.

But, while EMR will already be familiar with them, there wont be any room for them soon. When Etches Park becomes a Hitachi Depot (currently Bombardier) and full of 810s, you’d have to look to stable the class elsewhere. I don’t believe they can operate under the Sprinter differentials on the eastern leg either.

 

[dosxuk]

As I understand the situation, there is no allocated home for the 222s, as and when the 810s arrive with EMR. These might offer what's needed for the Nottm-Liverpool journeys and already 5 cars. EMR is used to the vehicles maintainence and would offer a slightly quicker journey.

This would of course mean either splitting the service at Nottm, or running these right through to Norwich.

No depot space once the 810s arrive, and no chance of sending them to Norwich - they lose a significant amount of time across the fens due to not being able to use the spinster differentials. When they have been used up to Liverpool, the same differentials issue means that while they can use the extra power to keep to the existing schedules, they aren't any quicker overall.

Would require some significant investment for a 222 to match even a 156 on a full Norwich-Liverpool run.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Isn't the capacity lower on a 222 as well- at least in terms of seats/standing space per metre of train? I assume there'd also need to be additional training for crews- presumably not all crews that do Liverpool to Norwich will be trained on Meridians, and not all crews who sign the units will sign the route.

 

[QSK19]

As I understand the situation, there is no allocated home for the 222s, as and when the 810s arrive with EMR. These might offer what's needed for the Nottm-Liverpool journeys and already 5 cars. EMR is used to the vehicles maintainence and would offer a slightly quicker journey.

This would of course mean either splitting the service at Nottm, or running these right through to Norwich.

It has been mentioned to death on RF why the 222s aren’t suitable for this route. Additional reasons to the above being seating capacity inefficiency and the fact that they don’t like a stop-start working pattern (as demonstrated when they’ve run on the Ivanhoe line stopper service).

So, 158s stay in the fleet and, as others have said, hopefully some get reformed into 3 car units.

 

[dk1]

Yes seating capacity on a 5-car Meridian is much less than a 5-car 158. These also, as has been stated many times, cannot run at SP speeds east of Peterborough.

 

[LUYMun]

The 158s could transfer to SWR and run alongside the 158s/159s to extend the lengths of the West of England line services, having been on some that were formed of 2 or 3 coaches, but that would be wishful thinking for me.

 

[dk1]

The 158s could transfer to SWR and run alongside the 158s/159s to extend the lengths of the West of England line services, having been on some that were formed of 2 or 3 coaches, but that would be wishful thinking for me.

SWT always seemed to hire out their fleet to other TOCs though.

After losing the Bristol extensions & the Weymouth route via Yeovil not coming back, do they need any?

 

[Liverpool 507]

Is 158889 stopping permanently at EMR? Are there any plans to send it back to SWR eventually?