Future of HS2 2b (Eastern Leg deprioritised)

[Starmill]

The government have published a Command Paper this morning which has raised some eyebrows:

The Government has accepted the recommendation in the report by Doug Oakervee that plans for HS2 and other major schemes need to be brought together in an Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) for the North and Midlands.

While the IRP will set out the form, scope and phasing of the Phase 2b route, we are prioritising development of the Western Leg into Manchester first as part of our overall commitment to improving connectivity to the North as quickly as we can.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/924646/DRC1_Response_Western_Leg.pdf

And a new consultation on the development of the Western Leg: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/hs2-phase-2b-western-leg-design-refinement-consultation

This will focus on design changes to accommodate Crewe North Connection, at Manchester Airport HS2 (to increase the number of platforms from 2 to 4), Manchester Piccadilly HS2 (to increase the number of platforms from 4 to 6) and a new train stabling facility in Dumfries & Galloway.

The government's intention to present a separate Bill to Parliament for each of the Western and Eastern legs is also confirmed, noting that this won't be for a until 2022, and that the West Midlands - Crewe Bill hasn't yet received Royal Assent.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is significant, as it shows some urgency in getting to Manchester, and also shows that plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) between Manchetser to Liverpool are sufficiently advanced to know where a new line would go.

 

[mister-sparky]

Interesting, but to me it still doesn’t show how NPR is going to connect in central Manchester. Or did I miss that bit?

 

[HSTEd]

Interesting, but to me it still doesn’t show how NPR is going to connect in central Manchester. Or did I miss that bit?

Personally I think the extra platforms at Manchester Airport might be somewhat telling.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting, but to me it still doesn’t show how NPR is going to connect in central Manchester. Or did I miss that bit?

Interestingly, it says that the 6-platform surface HS2 station at Piccadilly meets the requirement to add NPR services to the mix (to Liverpool and Leeds).
They are making passive provision for a Manchester-Leeds spur in the Ardwick area, with reversal in the terminus.
It also says there is a desire for a through NPR station via underground platforms, and no final decision has been taken.

Then there's the proposal to take a green-field site in "Annandale" (Quintinshill/Kirkpatrick, just north of Gretna Jn) to service HS2 stock on the northern WCML.
There's going to be a lot of ECS mileage with that plan.
Astonishing there is no existing railway-owned site in either the Carlisle or Glasgow areas that could be used.
Presumably the Scottish government will have a view on that.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting, but to me it still doesn’t show how NPR is going to connect in central Manchester. Or did I miss that bit?

Reading between the lines, a connection near High Lane and a route through Warrington looks favoured.

There's going to be a lot of ECS mileage with that plan.

Anything that allows the Prime Minister to claim he's spending money in Scotland is a winner these days!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reading between the lines, a connection near High Lane and a route through Warrington looks favoured.

Do you mean High Legh?
Which used to be a sleepy, remote sort of place until the M56 was cut through - and now probably NPR.
One of its back roads goes by the name of Silent Valley - not any more!

 

[The Planner]

Then there's the proposal to take a green-field site in "Annandale" (Quintinshill/Kirkpatrick, just north of Gretna Jn) to service HS2 stock on the northern WCML.
There's going to be a lot of ECS mileage with that plan.
Astonishing there is no existing railway-owned site in either the Carlisle or Glasgow areas that could be used.
Presumably the Scottish government will have a view on that.

Lots and lots were looked at on the border and around Carlisle including obvious ones like Kingmoor, but none really ticked all the boxes from what I have heard.

 

[Purple Orange]

From a Manchester perspective, if NPR is to be a reversal in Piccadilly, I think the sensible solution has been taken. However 6 platforms for 15 tph? Is that not asking for trouble?

 

[The Planner]

From a Manchester perspective, if NPR is to be a reversal in Piccadilly, I think the sensible solution has been taken. However 6 platforms for 15 tph? Is that not asking for trouble?

Depends on how many are reversing or terminating.

 

[HSTEd]

From a Manchester perspective, if NPR is to be a reversal in Piccadilly, I think the sensible solution has been taken. However 6 platforms for 15 tph? Is that not asking for trouble?

Not really.
Commuter stations manage with far higher utilisations after all.

 

[Purple Orange]

Depends on how many are reversing or terminating.

I suppose at least 2 of the Leeds services will be terminating, therefore I’m any given hour, there would be 4 Liverpool coming in from the Airport then going back out to Leeds, with the same number in reverse. That leaves two Leeds services, which could be linked up with the Birmingham trains, meaning that only the London services would be terminating.

Not really.
Commuter stations manage with far higher utilisations after all.

By commuter stations, I assume you mean the likes of Waterloo and London Victoria?

 

[DB]

Lots and lots were looked at on the border and around Carlisle including obvious ones like Kingmoor, but none really ticked all the boxes from what I have heard.

Isn't there a large derelict railway yard on on the Tyne Valley line, just as it comes into Carlisle?

 

[HSTEd]

By commuter stations, I assume you mean the likes of Waterloo and London Victoria?

Well the obvious example is Fenchurch Street, but also them.

Liverpool-Manchester or Manchester-Leeds post NPR would hardly be intercity journeys with intercity turnarounds.

 

[deltic]

Manchester airport remains unfunded ie only passive provision for a station will be made if no-one has coughed up for it when the line is being built

 

[Purple Orange]

Well the obvious example is Fenchurch Street, but also them.

Liverpool-Manchester or Manchester-Leeds post NPR would hardly be intercity journeys with intercity turnarounds.

They wouldn’t just be Liverpool-Manchester or Leeds-Manchester. They will still be Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh in all likelihood. Possibly even Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh, given that the eastern leg is at risk.

 

[trebor79]

Then there's the proposal to take a green-field site in "Annandale" (Quintinshill/Kirkpatrick, just north of Gretna Jn) to service HS2 stock on the northern WCML.
There's going to be a lot of ECS mileage with that plan.
Astonishing there is no existing railway-owned site in either the Carlisle or Glasgow areas that could be used.

Or even somewhere remotely close to a population centre for staff and to reduce the ECS mileage, rather than in the middle of nowhere. Mind you, I suppose that's exactly how places like Crewe and Swindon grew up. Maybe there will be a new "railway town"!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Are they likely to finish the HS2 Eastern branch before the ECML sinks below the Humber?

 

[Starmill]

Another interesting question: if NPR requires any Eastern Leg infrastructure, and work on the Eastern Leg is overtaken, will more be transferred out of HS2, especially in the Leeds area?

 

[Rob F]

Yet again the East Midlands gets the sh!tty end of the stick.

 

[The Planner]

Yet again the East Midlands gets the sh!tty end of the stick.

Whilst I don't disagree with what you are saying, I think it was always going to be the bit that got culled first.

 

[Domh245]

Yet again the East Midlands gets the sh!tty end of the stick.

The 'silver lining' is that there's slightly more reason to electrify the rest of the MML now

 

[HSTEd]

Yet again the East Midlands gets the sh!tty end of the stick.

Well whilst it is likely the Eastern Leg will be seriously value engineered, it is unlikely to be axed completely.

If NPR goes to leeds, most of HS2-East's benefits can be obtained by a spur from Birmingham that stops either at Toton or Chesterfield.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Or join the classic lines slightly further south, around Ratcliffe-on-Soar maybe, for through-running into Nottingham and Derby. There's not much need for Toton station if you're not continuing HS2E further north.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Then there's the proposal to take a green-field site in "Annandale" (Quintinshill/Kirkpatrick, just north of Gretna Jn) to service HS2 stock on the northern WCML.
There's going to be a lot of ECS mileage with that plan.
Astonishing there is no existing railway-owned site in either the Carlisle or Glasgow areas that could be used.
Presumably the Scottish government will have a view on that.

Anything that allows the Prime Minister to claim he's spending money in Scotland is a winner these days!

Cynical but true. But to the point all that ECS mileage is crazy. Even Carlisle would be crazy

 

[jfowkes]

If NPR goes to leeds, most of HS2-East's benefits can be obtained by a spur from Birmingham that stops either at Toton or Chesterfield.

You lose all the benefits of faster journeys from Derby/Nottingham northwards through - it's pretty slow now, especially from Nottingham being on the spur off the MML.

 

[HSTEd]

You lose all the benefits of faster journeys from Derby/Nottingham northwards through - it's pretty slow now, especially from Nottingham being on the spur off the MML.

Faster journeys from Nottingham to Leeds (probably including a crawl through Sheffield) are a relatively minor benefit now that Sheffield City council got its absurd wish for a city centre station.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Sop will be - an announcement almost simultaneously about MML electrification - I just feel it in my bones!

 

[greyman42]

Lots and lots were looked at on the border and around Carlisle including obvious ones like Kingmoor, but none really ticked all the boxes from what I have heard.

Would Longtown be suitable?

 

[The Planner]

Would Longtown be suitable?

Looked at and wasn't suitable apparently. even places like Eastriggs were on the original fag packets apparently.