Future of LNER diversions via Carlisle between Newcastle and Edinburgh with Class 800/801s?

[SteveP29]

Having just done my latest journey between Edinburgh and Newcastle diverted via Carlisle last weekend, I just had a thought, what is to happen when the Azuma comes online and LNER lose the HST?
Forgive my ignorance of the Azuma, is it bi-modal (is that the correct term, diesel and electric), and will it be a bus replacement service or a drag behind a thunderbird from Carlisle when the engineering works are happening?

 

[Darandio]

The Class 800 variant is a bi-mode. Regardless, electric 91/Mk4 sets have been dragged over the route.

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware the route is being cleared to allow for IETs to operate over on diversion over the line. LNER will be receiving thirteen 9-car and ten 5-car bi-mode Class 800s (i.e. they can run on wires where available or diesels otherwise) meaning that they will still have a substantial fleet capable of operating away from the wires.* This year was important, if you're into that sort of thing, as it is probably the last time that LNER will be doing the diversions with a majority fleet of HSTs (possibly the last time ever). But it's not the last year that the diversions will be happening!

* For the sake of completeness they're also getting thirty 9-car and twelve 5-car Class 801 EMUs.

 

[Mollman]

Presumably at some point 800s will be tested on the WCML between Edinburgh and Carlisle?

 

[jimm]

The Government issued maps seven years ago showing routes to be cleared for use by the trains in a response to a Freedom of Information request..

This shows the core routes to be operated and diversionary routes that will be cleared for use by 80xs, which includes both Newcastle-Carlisle and Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh.

Maps for East Coast and GW routes are down right at the end of this document, which lists every scrap of track then intended to be dealt with.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ds/attachment_data/file/4888/dft-f0008119.pdf

 

[gsnedders]

As far as I'm aware the route is being cleared to allow for IETs to operate over on diversion over the line. LNER will be receiving thirteen 9-car and ten 5-car bi-mode Class 800s (i.e. they can run on wires where available or diesels otherwise) meaning that they will still have a substantial fleet capable of operating away from the wires.* This year was important, if you're into that sort of thing, as it is probably the last time that LNER will be doing the diversions with a majority fleet of HSTs (possibly the last time ever). But it's not the last year that the diversions will be happening!

* For the sake of completeness they're also getting thirty 9-car and twelve 5-car Class 801 EMUs.

One thing I was wondering is what the performance of a 5-car 800 + 5-car 801 would be like across the Tyne Valley Line, because that could avoid some need for drags. IIRC from the IEP specification, they're required to be able to operate in that formation in diesel mode, though obviously the 800 will produce a disproportionate amount of the power.

It would be a bit over 500 tons with 3000hp at the crank, which isn't a huge difference power-wise compared with a 67 (which has 200hp more) and a comparable total weight to a 67+91+Mk4 rake.

 

[cactustwirly]

Having just done my latest journey between Edinburgh and Newcastle diverted via Carlisle last weekend, I just had a thought, what is to happen when the Azuma comes online and LNER lose the HST?
Forgive my ignorance of the Azuma, is it bi-modal (is that the correct term, diesel and electric), and will it be a bus replacement service or a drag behind a thunderbird from Carlisle when the engineering works are happening?

The 800s are Bi-mode so they can work to Carlisle under their own power

 

[route101]

Presumably at some point 800s will be tested on the WCML between Edinburgh and Carlisle?

Im sure i seen a picture of one at Carlisle . They have been to Glasgow too

 

[Darandio]

Indeed they have, Polmadie>Glasgow Central>Carlisle>Newcastle>Doncaster

 

[sprinterguy]

One thing I was wondering is what the performance of a 5-car 800 + 5-car 801 would be like across the Tyne Valley Line, because that could avoid some need for drags.

With the size of the LNER class 800 fleet, there should be no need for drags of any sort.

 

[Class 170101]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ds/attachment_data/file/4888/dft-f0008119.pdf

I'm surprised Harrogate to York is being cleared - can't see IEPs going there very often. Huddersfield clearly has been missed especially now the North TPE route from Liverpool to York via Manchester and York will use them.

Presumably lots of route around the Glasgow suburbs are being cleared (the map isn't clear) as the East Coast operator seemed to have a 'route card' as long as your arm.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Out of interest, could an 801 be dragged, if they needed to? If so, what by?

As for East Coast area I'm surprised Harrogate to York is being cleared - can't see IEPs going there very often.

At present the ECS for the Harrogate services runs to/from Neville Hill. As the IEPs will be based at Doncaster, I wonder if this route might be used for the ECS moves to avoid the need pass through Leeds.

 

[800001]

Presumably at some point 800s will be tested on the WCML between Edinburgh and Carlisle?

Already route cleared Newcastle - Carlisle Edinburgh/Glasgow.
Sets have also visited Carlisle and Glasgow for Platform testing (ie to see where train needs to stop for signal sighting).

For note is They have been route cleared for all the full route including diversion routes (Hartlepool coast/Lincoln/Cambridge etc)

 

[sprinterguy]

Out of interest, could an 801 be dragged, if they needed to? If so, what by?

Yes; by a class 800 or 802 unit of the same or greater length, or, mechanically if not electrically, by any locomotive fitted with a suitable adaptor coupling.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes; by a class 800 or 802 unit of the same or greater length, or, mechanically if not electrically, by any locomotive fitted with a suitable adaptor coupling.

...and they can supposedly provide their own hotel services because they have a single power pack.

 

[gsnedders]

Yes; by a class 800 or 802 unit of the same or greater length, or, mechanically if not electrically, by any locomotive fitted with a suitable adaptor coupling.

And I believe the spec required them to have some coupling adapter on-board for emergency use, but IIRC that only had to be usable up to 30mph.

 

[Fuzzytop]

As for East Coast area I'm surprised Harrogate to York is being cleared - can't see IEPs going there very often.

Virgin Trains East Coast suggested that they wanted to extend some of their York stopping services to Harrogate. I always presumed this would mean running into York first, then into Harrogate via Poppleton.

No idea if any of this is still in the pipeline. To be fair, I could swear there's a north-facing bay at Harrogate, so maybe this was just another of my crayonista thoughts...

 

[Kite159]

Virgin Trains East Coast suggested that they wanted to extend some of their York stopping services to Harrogate. I always presumed this would mean running into York first, then into Harrogate via Poppleton.

No idea if any of this is still in the pipeline. To be fair, I could swear there's a north-facing bay at Harrogate, so maybe this was just another of my crayonista thoughts...

There is indeed a York facing bay at Harrogate, however I suspect even a 5-coach IET will be too long for it.

 

[robbeech]

There is indeed a York facing bay at Harrogate, however I suspect even a 5-coach IET will be too long for it.

Very true, it’s not very long but it might be extendable. I for one would welcome this extension as it’s the York stoppers that I tend to use from Retford and I got to Harrogate frequently. I suspect the overall demand for it might not be high enough though, at least from before York. Though a second train per hour (or 1 per 2 hours) between York and Harrogate would be nice generally.

 

[Kite159]

I would guess before anything is extended from York towards Harrogate some more of the line will need to be doubled, or the services having a good bit of recovery time so it hits the single track sections on time so it doesn't mess up with the existing service

 

[pt_mad]

The Government issued maps seven years ago showing routes to be cleared for use by the trains in a response to a Freedom of Information request..

This shows the core routes to be operated and diversionary routes that will be cleared for use by 80xs, which includes both Newcastle-Carlisle and Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh.

Maps for East Coast and GW routes are down right at the end of this document, which lists every scrap of track then intended to be dealt with.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ds/attachment_data/file/4888/dft-f0008119.pdf

Are they actually planned to run to Kings Lynn as a core route?

 

[jimm]

No, that idea was dropped a long time ago.

 

[pt_mad]

No, that idea was dropped a long time ago.

Ahh right it was on the map, only reason I asked.