Future of On-Train Catering- Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper

[stj]

With so many Costas and other outlets on and around stations do we really need catering on trains these days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With so many Costas and other outlets on and around stations do we really need catering on trains these days?

We certainly need less of it, but your Costa has gone a bit cold by the 3rd hour of a long InterCity journey or by the morning on the Sleeper.

 

[Parallel]

I’d argue catering is probably most needed on lines where there is a lot of long distance travel but also where many stations served do not have any catering facilities at the station or nearby. I think that’s why the trolley is relatively popular on the Heart of Wales line.

It would never happen, but the most cost efficient way of running a catering service would probably be for the guard to note down orders when checking tickets, with the food being stored in an onboard cupboard.

After using XC’s static catering offering this weekend, as they were based out of the kitchens at the back of the train, if it was to become a long term static service, they could probably enhance the catering a little to also include some hot food. Perhaps XC shouldn‘t have ripped out the shops after all.

Sleeper services are a little bit different as you’re normally on the train for a very long amount of time with no other options available, unless you are very organised and bought all your meals and flasks of drinks with you!

 

[theironroad]

With so many Costas and other outlets on and around stations do we really need catering on trains these days?

Well that was Southern's argument when they removed all trolley services overnight.

I'd reckon if your maximum journey time is about 1.5hrs there's no need.

I'm surprised Portsmouth to London on SWR still has a trolley to be honest.

I'd guess when journey times go over 2 to 3 hrs, there is a need for some sort of catering offering.

 

[mark-h]

the most cost efficient way of running a catering service would probably be for the guard to note down orders when checking tickets, with the food being stored in an onboard cupboard.

On quiet services that could work, it would need to have a lockable cupboard as it will often be unattended. Busy services would still need a dedicated member of catering staff which would be justified by the increased sales.

The aim of doing this would be to provide a year round catering service on long distance rural lines which have very few passengers in the off-season.

Do the current trains have lockable space to store the catering? The extra 153s being added to the 156s have been showen to have a buffet counter although these may not be used when there are very few passengers traveling as the capacity is not needed.

 

[route101]

Well that was Southern's argument when they removed all trolley services overnight.

I'd reckon if your maximum journey time is about 1.5hrs there's no need.

I'm surprised Portsmouth to London on SWR still has a trolley to be honest.

I'd guess when journey times go over 2 to 3 hrs, there is a need for some sort of catering offering.

Glasgow to Edinburgh Scotrails via Falkirk High have a trolley. Only 50 mins journey.

I think at the moment, Scotrail catering staff are helping cleaning stations.

 

[alangla]

Glasgow to Edinburgh Scotrails via Falkirk High have a trolley. Only 50 mins journey.

I think at the moment, Scotrail catering staff are helping cleaning stations.

Did those trains carry 1 trolley or two? I’m trying to remember if the 6 car 170s had 1 or 2 trolleys as well, can’t really recall. I do remember that morning trains on the E&G were like breakfast in a hotel with the number of people munching bowls of cereal they’d brought from home

 

[dk1]

With so many Costas and other outlets on and around stations do we really need catering on trains these days?

Hell yes. Especially on longer distance services.

 

[route101]

Did those trains carry 1 trolley or two? I’m trying to remember if the 6 car 170s had 1 or 2 trolleys as well, can’t really recall. I do remember that morning trains on the E&G were like breakfast in a hotel with the number of people munching bowls of cereal they’d brought from home

I did see two trolleys a few times on 170s but were in same unit, perhaps positioning.

 

[Djgr]

Glasgow to Edinburgh Scotrails via Falkirk High have a trolley. Only 50 mins journey.

I think at the moment, Scotrail catering staff are helping cleaning stations.

My experience of commuting Liverpool to Manchester via East Midlands and TPE is that few commuters use catering trolleys, either because it would cripple them financially to use regularly or because they have developed their own habits e.g. the nice cafe on the Manchester Oxford Road approach road.

 

[theironroad]

Glasgow to Edinburgh Scotrails via Falkirk High have a trolley. Only 50 mins journey.

I think at the moment, Scotrail catering staff are helping cleaning stations.

That's definitely one I've always scratched my head at.

I'm not a regular user, but when I have seen it pass through its been rare to see it get used.

Having said that, I have used it before when I've been running late for the train and haven't had time to get one. Maybe late runners are the target audience lol

 

[route101]

That's definitely one I've always scratched my head at.

I'm not a regular user, but when I have seen it pass through its been rare to see it get used.

Having said that, I have used it before when I've been running late for the train and haven't had time to get one. Maybe late runners are the target audience lol

Yeah, don't think ive ever used the trolley on the E and G. Someone on here told me it makes more money than other routes.

 

[MrEd]

Yeah, don't think ive ever used the trolley on the E and G. Someone on here told me it makes more money than other routes.

I can imagine (at least pre-Covid) the trains were relatively well filled for most of the day (even when I’ve used them off-peak, those are busy trains), so even if only a comparatively small proportion of passengers used the trolley, it still made more money than one on a sparsely loaded Far North/Kyle/West Highland train in winter.

 

[38Cto15E]

Can any members tell me if I have got this correctly. I am thinking of going on the CS in the next week or two from Euston to Inverness in a Classic cabin. Other than when I go to the toilet am I confined to the cabin for the whole journey? Also am I correct in saying that there are no hot drinks available either in the evening or in the morning? I will be coming from a Tier 1 area.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Can any members tell me if I have got this correctly. I am thinking of going on the CS in the next week or two from Euston to Inverness in a Classic cabin. Other than when I go to the toilet am I confined to the cabin for the whole journey? Also am I correct in saying that there are no hot drinks available either in the evening or in the morning? I will be coming from a Tier 1 area.

The CS website is your friend here it has a full section about Covid Catering

Welcome, we're so happy to see you | Caledonian Sleeper

Caledonian Sleeper Covid-19 restrictions and guidance. Information on coverings and club car.

www.sleeper.scot

 

[6Z09]

Can any members tell me if I have got this correctly. I am thinking of going on the CS in the next week or two from Euston to Inverness in a Classic cabin. Other than when I go to the toilet am I confined to the cabin for the whole journey? Also am I correct in saying that there are no hot drinks available either in the evening or in the morning? I will be coming from a Tier 1 area.

You are correct, much like a "prison on wheels " at the moment .
Pretty far removed from all the "hotel on wheels "marketing of last year.
Gets you there, in a self isolated fashion, and good punctuality currently.

 

[alangla]

Gets you there, in a self isolated fashion, and good punctuality currently

Alex Hynes was feeling pleased with himself this morning on Twitter after ScotRail recorded their best September punctuality figures. The first response pointed out to him that it might be because passenger numbers are through the floor & he’s still not running a full service. Seems the railway really does run better without the inconvenience of paying passengers...

https://twitter.com/alexhynes/status/1320986878389194758?s=21

 

[najaB]

Seems the railway really does run better without the inconvenience of paying passengers.

The fact that they're not running a full service is probably a bigger factor - they're not trying to fit 5 litres in a 4 litre bottle.

 

[MrEd]

You are correct, much like a "prison on wheels " at the moment .
Pretty far removed from all the "hotel on wheels "marketing of last year.
Gets you there, in a self isolated fashion, and good punctuality currently.

Punctuality at the moment is arguably the best it has been in a long time. ’Prison on wheels’ is a bit strong- just wear your mask/face covering if you go out of your berth for any reason unless you’re exempt (not that there is much reason to, except to use a toilet if you’re in a classic room). I’m afraid catering (other than a prepacked breakfast) can’t be provided within the restrictions- this must be because of the need for physical distancing in kitchens, and also because it is against health and safety regulations to leave hot plates and hot drinks on the corridor floor (as has to happen to ensure a socially distanced room delivery). This is why hot drinks are out of the question.

I think that CS are doing the very best they can in this situation- at least they’re providing a sleeper train on which you can get a good sleep in a comfortable room and get from A to B on time (and in as socially distanced and safe a manner as can be achieved on a National Rail service)- which is probably all the current passengers want or need. Most passengers probably want to stay out of each others’ way, and the staff would probably rather do too for their own and their families’ health. We have to be thankful that the service has kept running all through the pandemic supporting our key workers and also responsible leisure travel once this was allowed.

The fares might be (some would say) a bit steep, especially given that there’s very little (other than an ensuite) to justify the first class premium at the moment, but so the staff I know tell me, they’re still managing to fill the train some nights- especially at weekends. In October!

I hate to say it but CS are for once doing exactly the right thing at the moment, and so one staff member was telling me, complaints are at their lowest since Serco took over in 2015 (probably helped immensely by the good punctuality record). It almost looks as if, out of necessity rather than choice, CS have reached a workable business model. Having used the service recently, the staff have seemed more relaxed, friendly and happy than they have been in a long time too. And that’s despite all the worries in the current situation.

Perhaps it’s time to ditch ‘hotel on wheels’ and celebrate CS for what it is- a sleeper train. That’s actually what the staff and passengers seem to want just now. Perhaps things will change when Covid is behind us, but I’m not so sure.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Punctuality at the moment is arguably the best it has been in a long time. ’Prison on wheels’ is a bit strong- just wear your mask/face covering if you go out of your berth for any reason unless you’re exempt (not that there is much reason to, except to use a toilet if you’re in a classic room). I’m afraid catering (other than a prepacked breakfast) can’t be provided within the restrictions- this must be because of the need for physical distancing in kitchens, and also because it is against health and safety regulations to leave hot plates and hot drinks on the corridor floor (as has to happen to ensure a socially distanced room delivery). This is why hot drinks are out of the question.

I think that CS are doing the very best they can in this situation- at least they’re providing a sleeper train on which you can get a good sleep in a comfortable room and get from A to B on time (and in as socially distanced and safe a manner as can be achieved on a National Rail service)- which is probably all the current passengers want or need. Most passengers probably want to stay out of each others’ way, and the staff would probably rather do too for their own and their families’ health. We have to be thankful that the service has kept running all through the pandemic supporting our key workers and also responsible leisure travel once this was allowed.

The fares might be (some would say) a bit steep, especially given that there’s very little (other than an ensuite) to justify the first class premium at the moment, but so the staff I know tell me, they’re still managing to fill the train some nights- especially at weekends. In October!

I hate to say it but CS are for once doing exactly the right thing at the moment, and so one staff member was telling me, complaints are at their lowest since Serco took over in 2015 (probably helped immensely by the good punctuality record). It almost looks as if, out of necessity rather than choice, CS have reached a workable business model. Having used the service recently, the staff have seemed more relaxed, friendly and happy than they have been in a long time too. And that’s despite all the worries in the current situation.

Perhaps it’s time to ditch ‘hotel on wheels’ and celebrate CS for what it is- a sleeper train.

GWR seems to far a bit better on the catering (maybe the design of the buffet car) but they allow a takeaway service from the buffet back to your cabin including hot drinks

 

[MrEd]

GWR seems to far a bit better on the catering (maybe the design of the buffet car) but they allow a takeaway service from the buffet back to your cabin including hot drinks

The problem is that CS (annoyingly) don’t have a buffet counter on the Mk5s, and the corridor by the lounge car kitchen is unacceptably narrow for social distancing. So I think you’re right. If they had a counter with Perspex screens and enough space around it, this would work.

I’m going to be controversial: I’ve enjoyed the journeys I’ve done on the Inverness route under Covid restrictions in late summer/early autumn far more than any on the Mk5s pre-Covid- many of which were marred by poor staff attitude, a general atmosphere of chaos and poor punctuality. It feels so much more relaxed- now that the urge to bag lounge car tables is gone, no longer is there the need to be the first on the train, so boarding is more spread out. The staff are like changed people- they now have time (albeit from a social distance) to give passengers a proper welcome and explain how everything works. This was so sorely missed pre-Covid. Those annoying breakfast cards have been ditched, and no one harasses you for your breakfast order or gives you a row for not filling the card out. There’s also no need to be up especially early now that you can enjoy the views from the room.

What CS need to do post-Covid is build on these positives which they’ve found by accident, rather than going back to the pre-Covid experience which so often left passengers disappointed, and not always very relaxed. The high level of customer care shown at the moment, and the lovely relaxed atmosphere on the train needs to be maintained.

 

[Mike Machin]

On our trains in Norway all ‘inter city’ type services still have a Kafe/bistro, but almost all trains except local/short-distance commuter services have a vending machine area dispensing a wide range of hot and cold drinks together with snacks (including some very healthy offerings!).

 

[Butts]

GWR seems to far a bit better on the catering (maybe the design of the buffet car) but they allow a takeaway service from the buffet back to your cabin including hot drinks

Amazing how they manage to serve Hot Drinks and Snacks on Aircraft that have much smaller Galleys than any Train, and as for Social Distancing don't go there !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amazing how they manage to serve Hot Drinks and Snacks on Aircraft that have much smaller Galleys than any Train, and as for Social Distancing don't go there !!

The situation with regard to air travel is gross hypocrisy, to be honest.

 

[DelW]

There’s also no need to be up especially early now that you can enjoy the views from the room.

Is it possible to sit comfortably and look out of the window in a mark 5 berth?

I haven't travelled on the new stock, but my memory of the mark 3s, admittedly a few years ago, was that I couldn't, so I spent the daylight hours in the lounge car. Not being able to do so would have marred the experience considerably.

 

[Fishplate84]

I agree, I’m not sure that will ever happen now, especially in the current economic climate. My bet is that if anything, catering operations on the sleeper will be contracting, not expanding.

I hope not, that would be totally short sighted and miss the point of why a good number of visitors actually choose to use the sleeper. It has to be about the experience - the allure of the dining car experience included. As soon as the mentality shifts back to it just being a functional overnight train service then it is a slippery slope to failure. Scottish Government need to keep a focus on why they were so keen to invest in it and make something of it.

 

[najaB]

The situation with regard to air travel is gross hypocrisy, to be honest.

Yes and no. There have been a number of studies that show the risk of transmission to be comparatively low due where passengers are all wearing masks. (e.g. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771435).

That is, naturally, not to say that there is zero risk of transmission: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/11/20-3254_article

 

[glenbogle]

GWR seems to far a bit better on the catering (maybe the design of the buffet car) but they allow a takeaway service from the buffet back to your cabin including hot drinks

Was on the Night Riviera on Thursday 8th Dec from Paddington to Penzance and the lounge car was open, sat in it to Reading. It was the first night of a trial so felt quite fortunate to be able to sit and relax before bed.

 

[MrEd]

Is it possible to sit comfortably and look out of the window in a mark 5 berth?

I haven't travelled on the new stock, but my memory of the mark 3s, admittedly a few years ago, was that I couldn't, so I spent the daylight hours in the lounge car. Not being able to do so would have marred the experience considerably.

To be honest, I was worried about this- as in a way it is a shame to be on the WHL or HML in daylight hours without a lounge car. Actually, it wasn’t too bad and you can still enjoy the views (you might want to stand to enjoy the best bits, like going over Druimuachdar). It’s probably no substitute for a lounge car but it’s the best you can do in these times.

I hope not, that would be totally short sighted and miss the point of why a good number of visitors actually choose to use the sleeper. It has to be about the experience - the allure of the dining car experience included. As soon as the mentality shifts back to it just being a functional overnight train service then it is a slippery slope to failure. Scottish Government need to keep a focus on why they were so keen to invest in it and make something of it.

I‘m not sure that I agree, as now that air travel is off the agenda for most people for the foreseeable future, there is a market for people who need to get to (particularly northern areas) of Scotland quickly (and for people in those areas to get to London/more southern areas of England) and who simply need a convenient, reliable service to get them to (among other things) job interviews, funerals, work commitments, weddings, family gatherings, seeing friends etc. The pandemic might have made a lot more people wary about using day trains or flights, and although some users of this forum do it, it’s a very long way to drive (particularly if you have work or an important commitment which requires mental effort the day after). These people are not interested in the experience per se, but certainly want comfort, good customer care and (most importantly) reliability. A lot of tourists too probably just see it as a train to get them to where they need to be, as with most rail users in the UK. A lot of these customers, who were loyal users of the train in First Group and early Serco days, stopped using the sleeper because of a combination of poor reliability and escalating fares as the old stock became worn out and the new stock had its teething problems.

2018 and 2019 were undoubtedly the sleeper’s very worst years, for many reasons. The experiences of many customers in those two years were not at all positive (I was definitely one of the luckier ones), and this has done a lot of damage to the brand. I think that CS need to emphasise that they have learnt a lot and made things better, so changing the business model now, to say those awful times are behind them, might not be a bad thing. I can remember when the train arrived in Inverness two hours late this time last year (after the nightmare journey) and I don’t think I’ve ever seen such irate passengers anywhere- more so from lack of information and lack of care from the staff than anything else. (I think passengers got a nasty surprise when they woke up at 7.30 to find the train hadn't even left Perth, with no explanation- even though you can make announcements on the Mk5s, and many crews do, none were forthcoming on this occasion). Lounge car or no lounge car, things are now 100 times better than they were then.

Obviously, there has to be some form of catering (post-Covid) and some level of customer care, otherwise it would be a very dreary service, but if it went back to how it was in First Group days (albeit obviously with the Mk5s and their better facilities), I can’t say that anyone would moan too much, as it was great fun to use back then. The parts of the experience which matter most to me are customer care (e.g. being informed of delays, estimated arrival times, a proper welcome on boarding, not being shouted at- again, the attitude of some staff left a lot to be desired on a supposedly high-end service, although I have seen a lot of new, much friendlier faces this year) and timekeeping, with catering third (as long as I don’t go hungry or thirsty on the train post-Covid, I’ll be happy).

What I do want to see is the friendliness and helpfulness of the current staff, the improved communication and the relaxed atmosphere that are now a feature of the experience, yet so totally lacking before the pandemic hit.

 

[al78]

I hope not, that would be totally short sighted and miss the point of why a good number of visitors actually choose to use the sleeper. It has to be about the experience - the allure of the dining car experience included. As soon as the mentality shifts back to it just being a functional overnight train service then it is a slippery slope to failure. Scottish Government need to keep a focus on why they were so keen to invest in it and make something of it.

Speaking for myself, I've used the sleeper purely for utility reasons rather than treating it as a tourist attraction. Living in southern England and enjoying an annual hiking/backpacking trip in Scotland it is a very convenient way of doing a very long journey without consuming a full day, and getting me there at a very convenient time to start my hiking trip as soon as I leave the train. The timing of the sleeper form Euston is conveninent as I have time to cook and eat an evening meal before leaving home, so don't have to worry about whether I'll be able to eat on the train. If I were to travel to the Scottish highlands on a daytime train I would have to buy split tickets and break the journey in Glasgow or Edinburgh long enough to find a nearby pub/restaurant for an (early) evening meal. That's quite tricky if I want to go to Fort William as the train journey from Glasgow is long and infrequent, so needs some careful timing, and will likely be expensive.