Future of the Blackpool South line

[Bald Rick]

Is there capacity at Preston for the extra hourly service?

It could well come down to a choice between this or Fleetwood.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there capacity at Preston for the extra hourly service?

Preston is hardly Picc P13/14 so I don't see why not. It's even got two disused platforms.

 

[Bald Rick]

Preston is hardly Picc P13/14 so I don't see why not. It's even got two disused platforms.

I agree Prsston isn’t The most congested, but I’m led to believe that pathing there is becoming quite an issue. Also, bringing into use the disused platforms would then have to be on the Business case.

 

[Flying Claret]

Preston is hardly Picc P13/14 so I don't see why not. It's even got two disused platforms.

Slightly off topic but didn't one of those disused platforms get used for an extra service to lytham a few years back (for the golf)? How did that work out?

 

[Howardh]

Slightly off topic but didn't one of those disused platforms get used for an extra service to lytham a few years back (for the golf)? How did that work out?

I can't answer that (and would be keen to learn!) but although the platforms at Preston are "disused" I have a feeling the lines are well used (freight/goods) and also the platforms are for goods (possibly post?). Someone will put me right, but I'm pretty sure with a touch of care and attention they can be brought back to passenger use?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't answer that (and would be keen to learn!) but although the platforms at Preston are "disused" I have a feeling the lines are well used (freight/goods) and also the platforms are for goods (possibly post?). Someone will put me right, but I'm pretty sure with a touch of care and attention they can be brought back to passenger use?

PRM might be the main issue, there's no lift to the Res platform. Not insurmountable though. It has been used for passenger in recent years, though. You've also got "P7" at the car park end which is short but just doesn't get used, though that's not much use for Blackpool as it's on the wrong side.

 

[Elecman]

PRM might be the main issue, there's no lift to the Res platform. Not insurmountable though. It has been used for passenger in recent years, though. You've also got "P7" at the car park end which is short but just doesn't get used, though that's not much use for Blackpool as it's on the wrong side.

There is a lift to the RES platform I used it this morning ! but it’s heavily used for delivery of food stuffs etc to the catering outlets. The platform is often used for stabling stock. Afaik platform 7 cannot be used for passenger services, was told this was due to some protection arrangement missing from the sidings.

 

[Howardh]

PRM might be the main issue, there's no lift to the Res platform. Not insurmountable though. It has been used for passenger in recent years, though. You've also got "P7" at the car park end which is short but just doesn't get used, though that's not much use for Blackpool as it's on the wrong side.

Does the "tunnel" stretch to the "disused" platforms? Used it several times but never notice - might even be walled off but easily brought back?

 

[Flying Claret]

Does the "tunnel" stretch to the "disused" platforms? Used it several times but never notice - might even be walled off but easily brought back?

It does. I caught a train to Birmingham from the RES platform in 2005? Ish. I think theres a partition wall and timber door there now, but could be wrong.

 

[Howardh]

It does. I caught a train to Birmingham from the RES platform in 2005? Ish. I think theres a partition wall and timber door there now, but could be wrong.

Thanks, I'll have a good look next time. I take it the tunnel is well maintained (if it wasn't could have repercussions for the track above if the roof fell in....!!).

 

[Elecman]

It does. I caught a train to Birmingham from the RES platform in 2005? Ish. I think theres a partition wall and timber door there now, but could be wrong.

Does the "tunnel" stretch to the "disused" platforms? Used it several times but never notice - might even be walled off but easily brought back?

Correct it does extend to the RES platform and is partitioned off with a door after the steps to Platform 1&2. The Network Rail offices are located in North Union House ( platform buildings) and in the yard.

 

[Lytham Local]

Slightly off topic but didn't one of those disused platforms get used for an extra service to lytham a few years back (for the golf)? How did that work out?

If memory serves me right, they ran 4 car services to terminate at Ansdell & Fairhaven and used RRB for the services from Preston to St Annes, Squires Gate, Pleasure Beach and Blackpool South.

 

[Elecman]

If memory serves me right, they ran 4 car services to terminate at Ansdell & Fairhaven and used RRB for the services from Preston to St Annes, Squires Gate, Pleasure Beach and Blackpool South.

Not sure about last time but previously they put a unit beyond Ansdell and Fairhaven and shuttled it to from Blackpool South, and another unit shuttling between Preston and Ansdell . Temporary sleeper block across the line at Ansdell during the day.

 

[Lytham Local]

Heard this before but there's always hope that we will see something happen on the South Fylde line. I've extracted the text as the Blackpool Gazette site is awful without a good ad blocker.

MPs unite to press for South Fylde rail line improvements
Fylde MP Mark Menzies and his Blackpool South counterpart Scott Benton have lodged a full Restoring Your Railway bid to double train services on the South Fylde line.

The MPs joined forces to put together the bid for a passing loop on the line, which would allow for a service between Preston and Blackpool South every 30 minutes.

The scheme was lodged with the full support of Northern Rail, Rail North, Transport for the North, Lancashire County, Blackpool and Fylde councils, as well as passenger, community rail, and business groups.

Mr Menzies said: “Ever since I was elected as Fylde MP I have called for a passing loop on this line. It is vital we improve services to make this line viable for commuters and students to use. For too long we have been short-changed on our railway.

“Too many services have been running late and too many are cancelled. The potential of a two-hour wait between trains means many people will not even consider using the line.”

Mr Benton added: “On top of the three per cent of services that were cancelled, we have some 173 services in the past 12 months which turned back to Preston early and did not reach Squires Gate, Blackpool Pleasure Beach or Blackpool South.

“That is the equivalent of the loss of nine and a half days’ services. We must have a better rail system to give people in Blackpool South the opportunity to work and learn further afield.”

The bid involves laying around three miles of track between Lytham and St Annes stations, the creation of a new rail platform at Ansdell and Fairhaven Station, the installation of signalling along the line, and potential platform changes at Preston Station. There is scope for improvements to St Annes and Lytham Stations, should Network Rail decide it would rather include those stations within the passing loop – but that would be decided further along the process.

Three feasibility studies have been carried out on the line to highlight the need for improved services.

Mr Benton said: “We need to move people away from a reliance on cars, and improved rail infrastructure and services to the Fylde coast are a must. There should be hundreds of thousands of tourists arriving in Blackpool South by rail every year, but we see a fraction of that.”

Mr Menzies added: “We must have better infrastructure to get people to and from our coastal communities, to make sure people can access the fantastic restaurants, shops and service businesses in the heart of our communities.”

Rail lines were improved between Preston and Kirkham during the electrification of the Blackpool North line, however the line remains a single track, classified as a ‘long siding’ between Kirkham and Blackpool South, limiting train services to one per hour.

 

[willgreen]

The bid involves laying around three miles of track between Lytham and St Annes stations, the creation of a new rail platform at Ansdell and Fairhaven Station, the installation of signalling along the line, and potential platform changes at Preston Station.

A three-mile passing loop would probably put any hopes of part-converting the line to tram operation to rest. That'd be a shame in some respects, but it certainly looks like Network Rail are considering doing a 'proper' job of it with changes at Preston etc.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

MPs unite to press for South Fylde rail line improvements
Fylde MP Mark Menzies and his Blackpool South counterpart Scott Benton have lodged a full Restoring Your Railway bid to double train services on the South Fylde line.

The MPs joined forces to put together the bid for a passing loop on the line, which would allow for a service between Preston and Blackpool South every 30 minutes.

The scheme was lodged with the full support of Northern Rail, Rail North, Transport for the North, Lancashire County, Blackpool and Fylde councils, as well as passenger, community rail, and business groups.

Mr Menzies said: “Ever since I was elected as Fylde MP I have called for a passing loop on this line. It is vital we improve services to make this line viable for commuters and students to use. For too long we have been short-changed on our railway.

(snipped the rest)

That is excellent news. In my view one of the single most needed (and relatively simple) improvements that can be made to the rail network (Really needs extension back to Blackpool Central too, but I guess that can be a future possibility). I really hope that proposal progresses.

 

[edwin_m]

Really needs extension back to Blackpool Central too, but I guess that can be a future possibility

Just be aware that the position of the passing loop "locks" the future timetable to a large extent. There may not be time to get from the loop to Central and back to the loop again reliably in time to pass the next train there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just be aware that the position of the passing loop "locks" the future timetable to a large extent. There may not be time to get from the loop to Central and back to the loop again reliably in time to pass the next train there.

I'm not sure this would be worthwhile anyway. It would be better (and cheaper) to upgrade South on the present site, as North is the main station and likely to remain so. It appears to have a large car park directly next to it, so plenty of space to add a second platform and a better building and overall roof.

 

[edwin_m]

It would be better (and cheaper) to upgrade South on the present site, as North is the main station and likely to remain so. It appears to have a large car park directly next to it, so plenty of space to add a second platform and a better building and overall roof.

Adding a second platform at the terminus usually isn't the best option for a single line branch where the proposed frequency would be every 30min. If both platforms are to be used then each train must wait at the station for 30min until one arrives in the other platform, which isn't an efficient use of trains and crews. Otherwise only one platform is ever used for the scheduled service, and you'd need a lot of excursions and specials for them to be the sole justification for providing a second one (and I imagine North has enough capacity to take these instead).

If the proposers have their sums right the loop will be positioned so the train can go from the loop to South and back (but not necessarily to Central) with a reasonable turnaround time at South, and get back to the loop to pass the next train coming from Preston half an hour later. That suggests the mid-point of the loop should be around 10min travel time from South.

Two platforms start to become sensible at a frequency of every 10-15min (still with a single line), as that interval makes a sensible turnaround time for the train in one platform to leave just after one arrives in the other.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's no need to extend to Central, South is fine for the town centre (such as it is) and the shopping/commuter traffic will mostly be towards Preston anyway.

It's really Lytham St Anne's that needs the extra service, but if you're running it there you may as well go through to Blackpool.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Just be aware that the position of the passing loop "locks" the future timetable to a large extent. There may not be time to get from the loop to Central and back to the loop again reliably in time to pass the next train there.

Yeah that is true. But I'm thinking in terms of, the passing loop is the minimum needed to get a half-decent frequency on the line and that is to be welcomed on the basis that, going for some improvement now is better than going for a massive and much more expensive improvement that then gets killed because it costs too much. If you project 20-30 years into the future you could well find that if rail travel keeps growing, in, say, 2040-ish there may be reasonable demands to extend to Central, electrify, and run a higher frequency than every 30 minutes - and all those things would impact where any passing loop(s) should be. But you can't really plan for all that today and end up with a sensible-looking project that is likely to be approved.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There's no need to extend to Central, South is fine for the town centre (such as it is) and the shopping/commuter traffic will mostly be towards Preston anyway.

Are you sure of that? South is about a mile from the town centre. I doubt that many people would consider a mile to be a reasonable walk to/from the station (especially if they are carrying shopping). On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard to place a new Central station a few minutes walk from the town centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure of that? South is about a mile from the town centre. I doubt that many people would consider a mile to be a reasonable walk to/from the station (especially if they are carrying shopping). On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard to place a new Central station a few minutes walk from the town centre.

They could jump on the tram. People do that in similar circumstances in, say, Manchester.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my cut-price alternative: Two 'Penryn loops' with right hand running cut and shut together using the full lengths of the platforms at St Annes-on-the-Sea and Ansdell & Fairhaven. Also avoids formation width issues Preston end of Ansdell & Fairhaven station where property development has encroached on the old alignment. It may be necessary to raise the line speed a little between Lytham and Kirkham to cut the section time and allow the loop to be nearer the Blackpool end of the line. Perhaps Moss Side station could be closed (again) to facilitate this and the crossing there converted to a different type.

Blackpool South Branch Line Railway - Alternative Proposal for a cost-effective passing loop to enable 30-minute interval service, splitting the old long platforms using a 'Penryn style' arrangement at St. Annes-on-the-Sea and Ansdell & Fairhaven to avoid construction of separate new platforms with expensive new accesses.

 

[A0wen]

Are you sure of that? South is about a mile from the town centre. I doubt that many people would consider a mile to be a reasonable walk to/from the station (especially if they are carrying shopping). On the other hand, it wouldn't be hard to place a new Central station a few minutes walk from the town centre.

There are loads of places where the station is 1 mile from the shopping area - add in fewer and fewer people are going into town centres to do their shopping.

And if people have that much problem with shopping they'll get a taxi or bus to the station.

Or in the case of this specific line where Lytham and St Anne's are the two places en route which also have direct buses to Blackpool, chances are people will get on a bus - particularly if they are pensioners and have an ENCTs pass.

 

[MarkyT]

Or in the case of this specific line where Lytham and St Anne's are the two places en route which also have direct buses to Blackpool, chances are people will get on a bus - particularly if they are pensioners and have an ENCTs pass.

That is true. The tram could be extended fairly easily as well, even independently of the railway alignment, at least as far as St Annes, but that being a separate local authority means their ENCTs wouldn't be valid like Fleetwoods so there would be a continued similar absurd scenario of frequent filthy diesel buses parallelling clean electric trams just to carry the pensioners.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is true. The tram could be extended fairly easily as well, even independently of the railway alignment, at least as far as St Annes, but that being a separate local authority means their ENCTs wouldn't be valid like Fleetwoods so there would be a continued similar absurd scenario of frequent filthy diesel buses parallelling clean electric trams just to carry the pensioners.

Give it 10 years, if this railway proposal goes ahead instead of the (in my view) far better tram proposal, and that will be "frequent clean zero-emission electric buses paralleling stinking 1990s DMUs running half empty", which poses the risk of closure. Any electric proposal has to be superior to any proposal likely to involve long-term diesel.

 

[bassmike]

Heard this before but there's always hope that we will see something happen on the South Fylde line. I've extracted the text as the Blackpool Gazette site is awful without a good ad blocker.

MPs unite to press for South Fylde rail line improvements
Fylde MP Mark Menzies and his Blackpool South counterpart Scott Benton have lodged a full Restoring Your Railway bid to double train services on the South Fylde line.

The MPs joined forces to put together the bid for a passing loop on the line, which would allow for a service between Preston and Blackpool South every 30 minutes.

The scheme was lodged with the full support of Northern Rail, Rail North, Transport for the North, Lancashire County, Blackpool and Fylde councils, as well as passenger, community rail, and business groups.

Mr Menzies said: “Ever since I was elected as Fylde MP I have called for a passing loop on this line. It is vital we improve services to make this line viable for commuters and students to use. For too long we have been short-changed on our railway.

“Too many services have been running late and too many are cancelled. The potential of a two-hour wait between trains means many people will not even consider using the line.”

Mr Benton added: “On top of the three per cent of services that were cancelled, we have some 173 services in the past 12 months which turned back to Preston early and did not reach Squires Gate, Blackpool Pleasure Beach or Blackpool South.

“That is the equivalent of the loss of nine and a half days’ services. We must have a better rail system to give people in Blackpool South the opportunity to work and learn further afield.”

The bid involves laying around three miles of track between Lytham and St Annes stations, the creation of a new rail platform at Ansdell and Fairhaven Station, the installation of signalling along the line, and potential platform changes at Preston Station. There is scope for improvements to St Annes and Lytham Stations, should Network Rail decide it would rather include those stations within the passing loop – but that would be decided further along the process.

Three feasibility studies have been carried out on the line to highlight the need for improved services.

Mr Benton said: “We need to move people away from a reliance on cars, and improved rail infrastructure and services to the Fylde coast are a must. There should be hundreds of thousands of tourists arriving in Blackpool South by rail every year, but we see a fraction of that.”

Mr Menzies added: “We must have better infrastructure to get people to and from our coastal communities, to make sure people can access the fantastic restaurants, shops and service businesses in the heart of our communities.”

Rail lines were improved between Preston and Kirkham during the electrification of the Blackpool North line, however the line remains a single track, classified as a ‘long siding’ between Kirkham and Blackpool South, limiting train services to one per hour.

 

[bassmike]

Fantastic restaurants and shops----------------------in blackpool???!

 

[Grumpy]

I never understood why they built the new tram depot at Star Gate. The site used to be a very popular car park for visitors spending the day in Blackpool. It offered a good interchange with the trams and a relatively quick drive to the motorway. Having built the tram depot the parking is lost and with it I suspect a high proportion of the tram users south of the Pleasure Beach. The Star Gate terminus now offers no decent interchange with the trains, buses (from St. Annes etc.) or motorists. They would have done better building the depot at Fleetwood .
Given where we are today one option that should be considered would be to put a short loop in the tram line and extend this to the front of the Pleasure Beach station, giving a good tram/train interchange. Trains would terminate there and the line to South be abandoned. The tram interchange would offer train passengers a much better range of destinations than the current South which is next to useless.