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Future of the Class 89

PYROOGOBBO

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wait, there will be a lot of redundant MK3's by the time it's possibly done?

and those mk3's could be gotten by railtour companies?
 
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CosherB

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I hope this isn't a silly question but (here goes), with the scale of work being done on 89001 and the money it could potentially earn if used on the Caley Sleepers would it be worth or even possible to upgrade the ETS so that it could work them? What I suppose I mean is would it be technically possible?
Or is it just how it is and let's be happy that it may at some point be an excellent railtour locomotive?
Thanks in advance technical and knowledgeable types for your informed and friendly replies. ;)

I doubt that the AC Loco Group would want to see it's precious 89 flogged up and down the north-south mainlines, even if it was feasible to double the ETS capability of the loco. It wouldn't be a sympathetic restoration then would it? And in any case, GBRf have plenty of 92s to offer the CS .....
 

Mag_seven

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What routes is the Class 89 cleared for? - I've only ever seen it on tests between Crewe and Carlisle and on the ECML between Kings Cross and Leeds? Has it ever been to Scotland?
 

TimboM

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I doubt that the AC Loco Group would want to see it's precious 89 flogged up and down the north-south mainlines, even if it was feasible to double the ETS capability of the loco. It wouldn't be a sympathetic restoration then would it? And in any case, GBRf have plenty of 92s to offer the CS .....

I agree - but I think there's still a reasonable question as to whether they'd be happy for it to operate in the same way as their 87/86s, i.e. ECS moves with the odd 'full' run in an emergency, together with railtour/excursion workings etc. It'll no doubt cost a bit to keep going, so would pay for the bills (and then the next loco they want to restore).

All a bit hypothetical (the full run part at least) if it's impossible to "boost" the ETS somehow. I'd be interest as per Cowley's question if anyone who has knowledge about such things could comment on its technical feasibility.
 

CosherB

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I agree - but I think there's still a reasonable question as to whether they'd be happy for it to operate in the same way as their 87/86s, i.e. ECS moves with the odd 'full' run in an emergency, together with railtour/excursion workings etc. It'll no doubt cost a bit to keep going, so would pay for the bills (and then the next loco they want to restore).

All a bit hypothetical (the full run part at least) if it's impossible to "boost" the ETS somehow. I'd be interest as per Cowley's question if anyone who has knowledge about such things could comment on its technical feasibility.

I'm not an expert in electrikery, but apparently the new Mk5 CS stock runs at the UIC ETS supply voltage of 1500V, due to the overall supply requirement.

I think that puts to bed any idea of using a loco other than a 92! ;)
 

PYROOGOBBO

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I doubt that the AC Loco Group would want to see it's precious 89 flogged up and down the north-south mainlines, even if it was feasible to double the ETS capability of the loco. It wouldn't be a sympathetic restoration then would it? And in any case, GBRf have plenty of 92s to offer the CS .....

i also don't know if they would fancy their intercity livery being changed? though the 89 in sleeper green would look pretty awesome.

and talking of such, if only 92's could power the new MK5 stock then, (forgive my lack of knowhow) what would happen if the sleeper had to be diverted along a non electrified route/if electricity became non available? is there diesel locos capable of producing the electricity needed or would a generator van be a decent idea? O3o, or is it simply get a freight loco (like a 66/59) then just plomp a 67 on the end and it'll be powered fine?
 
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37038

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One possible solution would be to split the cable in the middle and treat it as 2 separate trains and have a loco heating each half. Obviously this would probably involve additional staff to ride on the tailgunner
 

TimboM

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I'm not an expert in electrikery, but apparently the new Mk5 CS stock runs at the UIC ETS supply voltage of 1500V, due to the overall supply requirement.

I think that puts to bed any idea of using a loco other than a 92! ;)

Yeah, rings a bell now you've said it...
 

TimboM

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i also don't know if they would fancy their intercity livery being changed? though the 89 in sleeper green would look pretty awesome.

and talking of such, if only 92's could power the new MK5 stock then, (forgive my lack of knowhow) what would happen if the sleeper had to be diverted along a non electrified route/if electricity became non available? is there diesel locos capable of producing the electricity needed or would a generator van be a decent idea? O3o, or is it simply get a freight loco (like a 66/59) then just plomp a 67 on the end and it'll be powered fine?

I suspect they'd want to keep it in InterCity too, but ultimately if the price is right and it enables them to restore it, keep it running and work on other projects as you say it isn't a bad livery to have to wear.

Re. your other questions, I'm pretty sure no diesel loco comes close to the ETS required and also other than the likes of the 66s (which have no ETS) locos such as the 67 struggle to keep time with a 16-coach rake and possibly 126 tonnes of 92 in tow as well - especially on the steep WCML gradients (Shap/Beattock etc)

I doubt the cost of generator coaches would be at all justified for the very rare times one would be needed - and if they were they a) wouldn't fit in Euston, b) would need to be shunted on somehow last minute (as would almost always be in an emergency)...

It really is 92s or nothing, and if a diesel rescue/drag is required it ideally needs to be a 66 (or something with similar grunt e.g. 70/59) and would only be for the absolute minimum duration as simplistically there is no ETS supply and the passengers get a bit chilly for the duration of the drag. They have used 66s in emergencies to drag failed Sleepers or when the wires were down at Preston the other month and that's effectively what happened.

So, in summary, 89001 may be able to do Sleeper ECS if ACLG wanted, but very unlikely to be able to do full sleeper runs. 92s are the only feasible loco for the new stock (for 16-coach full length trains at least) and this has been covered at length elsewhere as per links in my post above.

Back to 89001... :D
 
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TimboM

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One possible solution would be to split the cable in the middle and treat it as 2 separate trains and have a loco heating each half. Obviously this would probably involve additional staff to ride on the tailgunner

This has been discussed on either or both of the Caledonian 92 and Caledonian Sleeper threads (see link above) and in summary is beset with all sorts technical and operational challenges which would make it pretty much impossible - certainly not a feasible option.

Of course what is really needed is a loco purpose-built for large, ETS-guzzling sleeper trains... oh wait, hang on... ;)
 

CosherB

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i also don't know if they would fancy their intercity livery being changed? though the 89 in sleeper green would look pretty awesome.

I'd hope a repaint is included in the restoration - it's been (I think) 10 years since it's last repaint and it does show ....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kempydak/32332422815/in/photolist-Rg77RM-Qeqa7H-PJ6yWz-PLWYit-PLWYNr-PLWZhH-PAMEVX-P8zxmd-PAPZwA-NjFVKK-MugHTh-Rr4fCj-N2i8sU-NmPrxA-No2TTR-ejh6uW-ejbkvi-NdnTYS-NXC3FB-N2AXBo-NP4pYM-P3iCCa-NbpCFG-NqbswR-NcrFB6-MEH1HJ-MWHkKh-N7W6h6-MZnqbT-MWHkzs-MPgpED-MMkKNP-MMkKzn-PBpbCM-M2E4o1-Lwd8J4-MzodoG-LaprPs-M4DXu1-LaUppi-M6MfC3-LGeWh5-LdzBKN-Lut2Zj-LoDdJ4-LnEECd-LnUvVV-Lghdrz-LW5KVL-L7fcKd

Personally, I'd like to see it back in IC Swallow, but that's my preference!

GNER blue would also be historically accurate ..... ;)
 
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takno

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I'd hope a repaint is included in the restoration - it's been (I think) 10 years since it's last repaint and it does show ....

Personally, I'd like to see it back in IC Swallow, but that's my preference!

GNER blue would also be historically accurate ..... ;)

I think BR blue with big logo would look best. Historical accuracy is overrated!
 

PYROOGOBBO

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IC swallow makes any train look frigging amazing, made the 91's look super amazing before EC made it silver and made it look super dated , probably the best BR livery imo :')

... i would kinda keep the 89 in IC swallow, makes it that little bit extra of a "catch" (though it'd be a huge catch anyway) , plus not many rail tour trains... or any? have IC livery,
 
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TimboM

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IC swallow makes any train look frigging amazing, made the 91's look super amazing before EC made it silver and made it look super dated , probably the best BR livery imo :')

... i would kinda keep the 89 in IC swallow, makes it that little bit extra of a "catch" (though it'd be a huge catch anyway) , plus not many rail tour trains... or any? have IC livery,

InterCity Swallow for me too: https://flic.kr/p/adyKuJ

If you're referring to railtour stock rather than locos, there's is at least one set of intercity coaches as was used recently with 88003 on the SVR, e.g. https://flic.kr/p/UJ5n1U.

And as you mention it, here's what the 91s/225s should look like...!! https://flic.kr/p/UbhG42
 
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TimboM

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What routes is the Class 89 cleared for? - I've only ever seen it on tests between Crewe and Carlisle and on the ECML between Kings Cross and Leeds? Has it ever been to Scotland?

Good question (which I don't have the answer to...)

You'd expect, though, it shouldn't have too many problems getting clearance in future if/when restored for any main electrified lines - or certainly any lines that other bigger/more power-hungry locos such as a 92 are cleared for?
 

Cowley

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Thanks for the above replies re ETS etc. Interesting stuff.
 

PYROOGOBBO

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InterCity Swallow for me too: https://flic.kr/p/adyKuJ

If you're referring to railtour stock rather than locos, there's is at least one set of intercity coaches as was used recently with 88003 on the SVR, e.g. https://flic.kr/p/UJ5n1U.

And as you mention it, here's what the 91s/225s should look like...!! https://flic.kr/p/UbhG42

I know they repainted one of the HST's into IC swallow, so why couldn't they do for one of the 91's? would be a fitting to at least have one 91 in IC attire for when they are sent off, and handy for if/when such 91 goes into railtours or such.

Just maybe thinking, repainted 89 and 91's in IC Swallow doing railtours by taking some redundant MK3's repainted into IC livery (and the 89 doing more tours using the mk2 stock, maybe idk?) , thrashing down some lines at 100+ , dunno if people would be interested, but godamn would i love to see that ,a true... Inter-City High speed rail tour?? , is a change from the mk2's and a bunch of 37s and 47's

but yeah i was referring to loco stock, not very many locos in IC livery? maybe there was an odd 86 or something in IC livery , but not many others i could think of.

i also know is generic question, but could the 89 be used also for any light-medium freight work?
 

CosherB

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I know they repainted one of the HST's into IC swallow, so why couldn't they do for one of the 91's? would be a fitting to at least have one 91 in IC attire for when they are sent off, and handy for if/when such 91 goes into railtours or such.

Just maybe thinking, repainted 89 and 91's in IC Swallow doing railtours by taking some redundant MK3's repainted into IC livery (and the 89 doing more tours using the mk2 stock, maybe idk?) , thrashing down some lines at 100+ , dunno if people would be interested, but godamn would i love to see that ,a true... Inter-City High speed rail tour?? , is a change from the mk2's and a bunch of 37s and 47's

but yeah i was referring to loco stock, not very many locos in IC livery? maybe there was an odd 86 or something in IC livery , but not many others i could think of.

i also know is generic question, but could the 89 be used also for any light-medium freight work?

The demand for electric traction on heritage stock just doesn't exist - I can count the number of ac locos in use on such traffic on the fingers of one hand. I just can't see the 89 getting that much mainline use in future.
 

TimboM

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I know they repainted one of the HST's into IC swallow, so why couldn't they do for one of the 91's? would be a fitting to at least have one 91 in IC attire for when they are sent off, and handy for if/when such 91 goes into railtours or such.

I'm sure I heard some rumours this may happen (or with VTEC HSTs) but not seen anything yet and the "Four Trains" event would've been the ideal opportunity. Seems like VTEC like their own livery and aren't into the retro paint jobs like GWR are.

...but yeah i was referring to loco stock, not very many locos in IC livery? maybe there was an odd 86 or something in IC livery , but not many others i could think of.

There's been a few painted into IC recently - seems to be a bit of a trend. Other than the GWR power car (43185), 47828 has very recently been decked out in IC Swallow and 50031 has fairly recently been put into IC livery too. But certainly nowhere near the number of blue/green/maroon heritage locos out there.

i also know is generic question, but could the 89 be used also for any light-medium freight work?

I very much doubt it - it was built as a high-speed passenger loco - the gearing etc. is probably all wrong. I'm sure if it really had to it could pull some wagons, but I don't think ACLG would be spending thousands of hours and pounds getting it going again to lug around freight wagons at night...

Aside from the obvious railtours/specials and VIP appearances at open/gala days etc. I cannot think of any realistic regular "operational" use beyond Sleeper ECS moves. The remaining electric loco-hauled coaching stock mainline routes (e.g. ECML, London-Norwich) all have replacement stock plans well advanced (e.g. IEP on the ECML) and they don't include an 89 + Mk3/Mk4 set.
 
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Cowley

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I first saw 89001 on test at Crewe in 1987. It's funny to think that it's thirty years old now. At the time class 50s were only twenty years old but the first one to be withdrawn (50011) was also at Crewe around then having a hole cut in its side for cables.
When I saw pictures in the magazines around then of 89001 in its original Intercity livery I must admit that I thought it looked a bit odd, in fact I remember a letter published in Rail Enthusiast that described it as looking like a schizophrenic HST. With the later liveries though, especially in my opinion the GNER colours it looked really good.
 

alexl92

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I think BR blue with big logo would look best. Historical accuracy is overrated!

I'm a big fan of 'What if' or semi-fictitious liveries like the Class 50 in IC Swallow but I've seen a mock up of 89001 in Large Logo blue and it doesn't suit it - its lines don't suit the huge yellow ends. Although in the interests of fairness I have to say that I don't think LL looks half as good on a lot of locos as most people seem to - 37s possibly the only exception in my humble opinion.

Would love to see it in CS Teal or refreshed IC Swallow though.

How about employing it on TPE Newcastle-Liverpool services using a 442 as LHCS? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

TimboM

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How about employing it on TPE Newcastle-Liverpool services using a 442 as LHCS? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

...with a 60 tucked in behind for true bi-mode capability? :lol:


Would be good to see a mock up of 89001 in Caledonian Teal if any of those photoshop gurus are watching ;) Although it's not that dissimilar to the GNER livery and that suited it well.
 
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43096

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I'm a big fan of 'What if' or semi-fictitious liveries like the Class 50 in IC Swallow

That 50 is not in IC Swallow, though. It's closer to Mainline, but not even correct for that.
 

sprinterguy

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IC swallow makes any train look frigging amazing, made the 91's look super amazing before EC made it silver and made it look super dated , probably the best BR livery imo :')
I personally think that the class 89 was the exception to the rule when it comes to Intercity Swallow livery, in that it really didn't suit it: The white cab pillars and large rectangular yellow warning panel really accentuated the slab like front end. IMO the loco was far better suited to the Intercity Executive livery it was delivered in (and subsequently wears in preservation), with the livery wrapped around to the front end and a smaller, more discrete yellow panel.
 

PYROOGOBBO

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sorry for thread necro'ing

I reckon, 89 would look really badass in GBRF yellow and blue and CS green i think would look super great now that i've thought about it,

i'm kind of learning photoshop and that rn but once i can i may try a sketchup of 89's in different liveries.

whats the chances of creating a special hybrid livery for it ? like a hybrid of CS green and Intercity, or is that not allowed?
 

BestWestern

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That 50 is not in IC Swallow, though. It's closer to Mainline, but not even correct for that.

Well it's never going to be 'correct', they've made it up! But what about the livery do you feel isn't right? Waistband too high up?
 

Harbornite

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There's been a few painted into IC recently - seems to be a bit of a trend. Other than the GWR power car (43185), 47828 has very recently been decked out in IC Swallow and 50031 has fairly recently been put into IC livery too. But certainly nowhere near the number of blue/green/maroon heritage locos out there.

One of the other AC electrics at Barrow Hill currently wears a variant of Intercity, as well as one of GWR's 08. 37518 and 37254 have both previously worn intercity swallow but have both been reliveried since 2014, and 86213, another swallow-liveried loco, was recently exported.
 

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