Future of the Class 89

[captainbigun]

Traction builders have become much better at understanding the problem and filtering out interference at the most troublesome frequencies 'at source', because electromagnetic compatibility has become so much more important generally today.

Mmm. I’d strongly disagree with that. Many of the new providers have made a dogs dinner of this. Hitachi and CAF recently have both had to make fleet wide changes as they got this wrong. I’d tentatively add Stadler too.

 

[captainbigun]

Indeed they do, but I suspect what happened in the ‘black box’ was in some way different.

Ish, 89 is a little more complex than 90/91 but not materially.

 

[MarkyT]

Mmm. I’d strongly disagree with that. Many of the new providers have made a dogs dinner of this. Hitachi and CAF recently have both had to make fleet wide changes as they got this wrong. I’d tentatively add Stadler too.

The big problem with the old TC interference issue was the possibility of wrong-side failure, that is, in this case, a track circuit falsely showing clear when actually occupied, with the extreme consequences that could lead to. Many of these later problems are essentially reliability-related. Hitachi managed to solve the 80x electrical issue on-board without having to replace all the older SSI modules on the northern parts of the ECML. It wasn't a TC issue though and would, at worst, have resulted in modules shutting down and signals reverting to red. The axle counter issues on GWML were also 'right side' and solved fairly easily by limiting the length and being more careful with routing of the sensor cables. They too could never have resulted in 'false clears'. I don't know anything about CAF problems, but suspect they may be similar. The Stadler level crossing predictor incident was very strange but could not have been traction current interference related at all, seeing as the event in question involved a unit in diesel mode, on a non-electrified line.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Mmm. I’d strongly disagree with that. Many of the new providers have made a dogs dinner of this. Hitachi and CAF recently have both had to make fleet wide changes as they got this wrong. I’d tentatively add Stadler too.

Don't forget Siemens (the 374s)

 

[captainbigun]

CAF’s issue is noise getting back into the supply resulting in other traction detection irregularities and falling into degraded operation, at best. Impacted Pendos and 92s.

And, yes, Siemens haven’t been immune but have been better than most.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed they do, but I suspect what happened in the ‘black box’ was in some way different.

There was also 87101 which had thyristor control but perhaps that was less advanced than the 90s.

Given the propensity for many 'new' trains to cause issues with the signalling when on test, perhaps something was done to solve any interference the 90s caused and that could have been done to the 89 as well?

I am of course speculating but, given the similar age I would assume the electronics are broadly similar in terms of technical advancement

 

[MarkyT]

I have a feeling that you may be forward-dating that anecdote a bit, as it sounds very similar to an older one concerning thyristor tests using 87101 in, I believe, Linslade Tunnel. In that case the noisy interloper that sent the dials off the gauges was an unidentified tap-changer passing on the opposite line.

While it does neatly illustrate that newer generally means electrically quieter, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it will always be immediately compatible.

Thanks for the correction! Tap changing switch-gear must have been extraordinarily noisy.

Independent experts engaged to challenge safety cases at all stages of design, construction and acceptance make their money by constantly envisaging ever more risk scenarios that have to be properly assessed, reviewed and closed out. It's a very important and positive process if managed correctly within reason, and has resulted in the industry becoming an ever safer and more dependable environment over the years for its customers and employees. A problem for industry PR though, and not just in railways, is when the non technical press get hold of a snippet of such a developing issue, blow it up into a worst-case scenario, and extrapolate it as somehow indicative of whatever preconcieved industry-wide systemic malady they may be promulgating at the time, such as a 'private sector bad' narrative...

 

[hexagon789]

Tap changing switch-gear must have been extraordinarily noisy.

Having heard some videos, the equipment in 86s sounds particularly noisy. You can hear each notch and shutting off sounds like a gunshot! *BANG*

 

[The Chimaera]

Some serious progress being made,

Still not sure what they are intending to do with it when its finished though.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Use for Charters?

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess this is the right place to wheel out an artist’s impression from 1985, taken from the Modern
Railways BR Electrification special of 1986.

 

[Cowley]

I guess this is the right place to wheel out an artist’s impression from 1985

Blimey. I hadn’t seen that before. Love the HST style noses and the lowered section in the centre of the body.
It would have looked pretty good even if it had turned out like that I reckon (although it would have been firmly stamped in the mid 80s).

 

[CW2]

I had the 89 on the day it finally burst, 27 July 1999. I had an all-day meeting in Doncaster,so I was very pleased when I saw 89001 on the 07:05 Kings Cross - Leeds (the train I had to take regardless of the traction in order to get to Doncaster on time). I alighted at Doncaster, returning for more of the same later that evening.
Word reached me that 89001 was now on the 15:40 Kings Cross - Leeds. It rolled in to Doncaster 25' late, only running on half power. It staggered slowly on to Leeds. There the driver refused to work back with it in that state, fearing it wouldn't make it up the bank to Wakefield. They extracted 47784 from Doncaster light engine to Leeds and plonked that on the front to work the 19:05 Leeds - Kings Cross. Cheers. The duff struggled just as badly with load 10 and a dead electric, plus the time taken to attach it. Once we reached Doncaster it was decided to take the 47 off again and run the 89 on half power unassisted to Kings Cross. We left Donny 25' late and were 40' late into Kings Cross.
Subsequently 89001 spent a long period under repair, and did one test run piloting a 91 as far as Doncaster. After that it retired to Bounds Green to live on as a carriage heating unit.
I had previously had it on a run to Bradford, when it achieved 125 mph without too much effort. I'm looking forward to it returning to traffic.

 

[PG]

I guess this is the right place to wheel out an artist’s impression from 1985, taken from the Modern
Railways BR Electrification special of 1986.

Appreciate you digging that out, thanks

 

[The Bear]

89001 new livery revealed - The AC Locomotive Group

We are the UK's only dedicated AC electric locomotive preservation society.

www.aclocogroup.co.uk

 

[jfollows]

Excellent, thank you for posting the picture. Like "CW2" I travelled behind it at least twice on the 15:40 King's Cross to Bradford. But it didn't fail on me! Good memories.

 

[Neptune]

For me the best livery it ever carried. Also the only livery I never got haulage behind it in.

 

[james60059]

Looks a beaut, I certainly look forward to seeing her on the mainline

 

[DarloRich]

warning: paint wibble alert

Looks decent

 

[Monkeyhead]

It always eluded me in my younger days, despite loitering around Leeds station a lot looking for it. Looks great in that paint job, hope it goes!!

 

[hexagon789]

89001 new livery revealed - The AC Locomotive Group

We are the UK's only dedicated AC electric locomotive preservation society.

www.aclocogroup.co.uk

Very nice indeed, but until I saw that I was under the impression it was getting Executive rather than "Swallow" but evidently the person who suggested that was misinformed.

All we need is it to now finally return to mainline running after two decades.

 

[Malcmal]

Just saw this on Flickr - not my photo by the way!!


89001. by 37260 - 10 million+ views, many thanks, on Flickr

 

[hexagon789]

Just saw this on Flickr - not my photo by the way!!


89001. by 37260 - 10 million+ views, many thanks, on Flickr

It's images like this that I think demonstrate how the 89 has never really got the attention it deserved in a sense, it's actually quite a stylish loco

 

[43096]

It's images like this that I think demonstrate how the 89 has never really got the attention it deserved in a sense, it's actually quite a stylish loco

Those headlights are horrendous though!

 

[hexagon789]

Those headlights are horrendous though!

I actually quite like the vertical arrangement but I wouldn't mind seeing a mock-up of a conventional horizontal light cluster just to see

 

[VEP3417]

the cab, the top half anyway reminds me of a concord

 

[hexagon789]

the cab, the top half anyway reminds me of a concord

The bird or the plane?

 

[John Hunt]

And the headlight openings remind me of the disc brake cooling openings on the old JPS Lotus Formula 1 racing car. (which looked fantastic in its black and gold livery!)

 

[VEP3417]

reminds me of the plane, especially in that livery

 

[hexagon789]

reminds me of the plane, especially in that livery

I can sort of get the similarity with the Concorde nose, and a comparison to one of the world's fastest and most famous aircraft types can be no bad thing!