Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

Perhaps @InkyScrolls can comment if this trains see any sort of extra through passengers from Glasgow?

I'm afraid I can't say, it's a Carlisle crew on that one.

 

[30907]

I'm afraid I can't say, it's a Carlisle crew on that one.

Also difficult to judge, because it has relatively recently moved to its present significantly earlier path.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Internal memo so you'll forgive me if I can't provide a source, but apparently Northern is working with NwR to completely rewrite the S&C timetable such that all trains call at all stations, which will be a boon.

 

[Halish Railway]

Internal memo so you'll forgive me if I can't provide a source, but apparently Northern is working with NwR to completely rewrite the S&C timetable such that all trains call at all stations, which will be a boon.

Is that all stations north of Skipton or Settle?

(Hopefully not all stations Leeds to Carlisle).

 

[30907]

Is that all stations north of Skipton or Settle?

(Hopefully not all stations Leeds to Carlisle).

Skipton at a guess, given that most S and C now call at Gargrave and Long Preston.

 

[Class 317]

That would be an absolute boon to the many walkers, cyclist's and locals that use the line and long overdue.

 

[anothertyke]

That would be an absolute boon to the many walkers, cyclist's and locals that use the line and long overdue.

Agree. In the winter the semi fast goes through Horton at exactly the time walkers want to be going home.

However I hope recasting doesn't mean too much messing about with the slots themselves. The timetable as a whole is pretty good.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Internal memo so you'll forgive me if I can't provide a source, but apparently Northern is working with NwR to completely rewrite the S&C timetable such that all trains call at all stations, which will be a boon.

Why a boon? And why a boon for walkers?
(Unless they are putting on more trains, that is?)

If enacted, it will definitely be a bit of a boost (hardly a boon) for Gargrave and Long Preston, I could agree, as a number of S&C trains skip these stops.

Apart from that, there's only one weekday up train that skips a few S&C stops, that's 1E65, the 13.36 Carlisle-Leeds. I imagine the most likely to take advantage of that are folks from the northern village stops that will be able to have a morning and lunch in Carlisle and get back earlier in the afternoon.

Then there's the SuO 2H66, the 16.07 off Carlisle, which is really the only 'express' working still surviving over the entire line. I think that would be far better left as it is – it's preceded by 1E20 all shacks to Nottingham only approx 50-40 mins earlier, so any walkers and cyclists can catch that with no great inconvenience.

So for me, stopping all services at all stops is a backward step. I can't believe many Long Preston passengers travel north or arrive from the north, and if they really need a train thcy can walk to Hellifield if necessary. And it will make the one 'express' working slower and less attractive for passengers from Glasgow/Dumfries/Workington changing at Carlisle for Leeds and Bradford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree this is a good thing. Unless you've got stations with very poor ridership that are only really getting a Parliamentary service, it makes sense for trains to stop at all stations on quiet routes, even if some moved to request status. The S&C is a local railway serving local needs; the semifast is just a hangover from the attempted (not that successful) Glasgow service of a while back.

Suggestions of there being any point in a daily express service just have the feel of enthusiasts' desire - traditional crack expresses appeal to enthusiasts but aren't actually that useful, particularly as we're talking about adding maybe 10 minutes to an already slowish journey.

Because it's well below hourly I'd probably not go clock face as it is probably better to time specific trains for specific needs at low frequencies, but all stations definitely makes sense to me.

 

[yorksrob]

Why a boon? And why a boon for walkers?
(Unless they are putting on more trains, that is?)

If enacted, it will definitely be a bit of a boost (hardly a boon) for Gargrave and Long Preston, I could agree, as a number of S&C trains skip these stops.

Apart from that, there's only one weekday up train that skips a few S&C stops, that's 1E65, the 13.36 Carlisle-Leeds. I imagine the most likely to take advantage of that are folks from the northern village stops that will be able to have a morning and lunch in Carlisle and get back earlier in the afternoon.

Then there's the SuO 2H66, the 16.07 off Carlisle, which is really the only 'express' working still surviving over the entire line. I think that would be far better left as it is – it's preceded by 1E20 all shacks to Nottingham only approx 50-40 mins earlier, so any walkers and cyclists can catch that with no great inconvenience.

So for me, stopping all services at all stops is a backward step. I can't believe many Long Preston passengers travel north or arrive from the north, and if they really need a train thcy can walk to Hellifield if necessary. And it will make the one 'express' working slower and less attractive for passengers from Glasgow/Dumfries/Workington changing at Carlisle for Leeds and Bradford.

I disagree. By all means have an express if you wish - but not at the expense of leaving large gaps in services to the intermediate stations.

 

[Class 317]

I disagree. By all means have an express if you wish - but not at the expense of leaving large gaps in services to the intermediate stations.

Agree with this. The long afternoon gap is very annoying when traveling to the more local stops and from using the line quite a bit the faster train is one of the quieter ones.

Calling all stops gives a regular and well thought out timetable catering for the many travel needs of locals and visitors alike.

 

[yorksrob]

Agree with this. The long afternoon gap is very annoying when traveling to the more local stops and from using the line quite a bit the faster train is one of the quieter ones.

Calling all stops gives a regular and well thought out timetable catering for the many travel needs of locals and visitors alike.

Indeed. I think the local stops on the S&C are probably more important in generating traffic than for comparable lines, owing to the access to the Dales that they provide.

 

[Starmill]

Agree this is a good thing. Unless you've got stations with very poor ridership that are only really getting a Parliamentary service, it makes sense for trains to stop at all stations on quiet routes, even if some moved to request status. The S&C is a local railway serving local needs; the semifast is just a hangover from the attempted (not that successful) Glasgow service of a while back.

Suggestions of there being any point in a daily express service just have the feel of enthusiasts' desire - traditional crack expresses appeal to enthusiasts but aren't actually that useful, particularly as we're talking about adding maybe 10 minutes to an already slowish journey.

Because it's well below hourly I'd probably not go clock face as it is probably better to time specific trains for specific needs at low frequencies, but all stations definitely makes sense to me.

I'm pretty sure we're only talking about the one southbound, as mentioned above, the 1336 from Carlisle.

In general, if a service doesn't stop, it's for a reason. The northbound equivalent of this service has slowly had the stops inserted over several years, except the Sunday pair, which are unlikely to change.

Agree. In the winter the semi fast goes through Horton at exactly the time walkers want to be going home.

However I hope recasting doesn't mean too much messing about with the slots themselves. The timetable as a whole is pretty good.

Changing the platforms at Leeds is a nightmare, and the slot between Armley Jn and Skipton isn't exactly flexible.

Indeed. I think the local stops on the S&C are probably more important in generating traffic than for comparable lines, owing to the access to the Dales that they provide.

There's a rather important reason the 1336 from Carlisle hasn't already had the stops inserted. The 1204 departure from Glasgow Central and the 1151 from Newcastle connect with it. These will be lost if even one more stop at Horton is added, as an earlier departure from Carlisle will be needed, and the minimum connection time therefore cannot be met. It's likely that sacrificing the connections at Carlisle is going to be the price for this service to pick up all stations to Skipton, which is finely balanced in terms of passenger numbers.

Calling all stops gives a regular and well thought out timetable catering for the many travel needs of locals and visitors alike.

It has many benefits. But I rather hope you wouldn't be one of the people on here saying words to the effect of "it's an outrage that the S&C train leaves Carlisle just 2 minutes before the express from Glasgow gets in. It's a callous disregard for the main-line potential of the route" et cetera et cetera.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm pretty sure we're only talking about the one southbound, as mentioned above, the 1336 from Carlisle.

In general, if a service doesn't stop, it's for a reason. The northbound equivalent of this service has slowly had the stops inserted over several years, except the Sunday pair, which are unlikely to change.


Changing the platforms at Leeds is a nightmare, and the slot between Armley Jn and Skipton isn't exactly flexible.


There's a rather important reason the 1336 from Carlisle hasn't already had the stops inserted. The 1204 departure from Glasgow Central and the 1151 from Newcastle connect with it. These will be lost if even one more stop at Horton is added as an earlier departure from Carlisle will be needed and the minimum connection time cannot be met. It's likely that sacrificing the connections at Carlisle is going to be the price for this service to pick up all stations to Skipton, which is finely balanced in terms of passenger numbers.

I'm probably being dim, but your connections are at Carlisle, whereas the stops are downstream. Couldn't the service be timed to arrive a bit later in Leeds ?

 

[Starmill]

I'm probably being dim, but your connections are at Carlisle, whereas the stops are downstream.

Correct.

Couldn't the service be timed to arrive a bit later in Leeds ?

No.

 

[yorksrob]

Correct.

No.

That doesn't really enlighten us very much though. Why not a later arrival in Leeds ?

 

[Iskra]

Agree this is a good thing. Unless you've got stations with very poor ridership that are only really getting a Parliamentary service, it makes sense for trains to stop at all stations on quiet routes, even if some moved to request status. The S&C is a local railway serving local needs; the semifast is just a hangover from the attempted (not that successful) Glasgow service of a while back.

Suggestions of there being any point in a daily express service just have the feel of enthusiasts' desire - traditional crack expresses appeal to enthusiasts but aren't actually that useful, particularly as we're talking about adding maybe 10 minutes to an already slowish journey.

Because it's well below hourly I'd probably not go clock face as it is probably better to time specific trains for specific needs at low frequencies, but all stations definitely makes sense to me.

Can you evidence that statement please? It was withdrawn for political reasons rather than anything to with usage, so I’m not sure how you can draw that conclusion and state it as if it were a definitive fact.

 

[Starmill]

That doesn't really enlighten us very much though. Why not a later arrival in Leeds ?

Apologies, I thought it had been pointed out above but it appears I misread.

Unfortunately in general the services that run via Skipton are followed on minimum headway in the southbound direction out of Skipton by an all-stations to Shipley service which continues to Bradford Forster Square or Leeds. In this instance the train from Carlisle leaves at 1531 and the Bradford FS service at 1535.

 

[30907]

That doesn't really enlighten us very much though. Why not a later arrival in Leeds ?

There are two paths per hour; the next one is occupied by a Morecambe.

The 1336 is only loosely related to the one-time Glasgow train which ran a couple of hours later. It would now make better sense for it to leave at 1250 or 1258 (in the latter case omitting Long Preston/Gargrave but giving a better Glasgow connection).

 

[yorksrob]

There are two paths per hour; the next one is occupied by a Morecambe.

The 1336 is only loosely related to the one-time Glasgow train which ran a couple of hours later. It would now make better sense for it to leave at 1250 or 1258 (in the latter case omitting Long Preston/Gargrave but giving a better Glasgow connection).

Thanks, that sort of makes sense !

 

[Ant158]

I wonder if this timetable rewrite might include more regular trains between Clitheroe and Settle and beyond. It would be interesting to know how the Saturday service compares in terms of passenger numbers, over the previous Sunday Dalesrail service

 

[30907]

I wonder if this timetable rewrite might include more regular trains between Clitheroe and Settle and beyond.

Any timetable rewrite for the Leeds route is unlikely to include extra trains, as the capacity is reasonably matched to demand.
Clitheroe-Hellifield/Ribblehead would be a separate project. An additional round trip at 1205 or 1305 could be managed with no extra stock, but I can't see it would be much patronisedl

 

[lyndhurst25]

Internal memo so you'll forgive me if I can't provide a source, but apparently Northern is working with NwR to completely rewrite the S&C timetable such that all trains call at all stations, which will be a boon.

Interesting that this has been brought up. I was just looking at the train times for my nephew, who is planning on doing the Yorkshire Three Peaks walk this summer, travelling from South Yorkshire (Sheffield, Meadowhall or Rotherham) The last two southbound trains of the day are an issue for him getting home, with the 2013 Carlisle to Leeds skipping stops at Dent, Ribblehead (passes at 2134) and Horton. It is followed very closely behind by the 2145 Ribblehead to Leeds stopper, that gets into Leeds at 2311, too late to connect with the last train of the day to Sheffield that leaves at 2312. I’m hoping that the proposed new timetable will improve on this.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I disagree. By all means have an express if you wish - but not at the expense of leaving large gaps in services to the intermediate stations.

Regardless of usage? That's just silly, wasteful and a disincentive for longer distance passengers caused by extended journey times.

Even the Tarka line has a (very) irregular stopping pattern designed to serve the stations that matter at the times they matter. As @InkyScrolls suggested earlier (probably up thread in this thread) little used stations outside commuting hours, such as Armathwaite, Dent, Ribblehead and Long Preston could be passed by some trains or made into request stops.

 

[Ken H]

Regardless of usage? That's just silly, wasteful and a disincentive for longer distance passengers caused by extended journey times.

Even the Tarka line has a (very) irregular stopping pattern designed to serve the stations that matter at the times they matter. As @InkyScrolls suggested earlier (probably up thread in this thread) little used stations outside commuting hours, such as Armathwaite, Dent, Ribblehead and Long Preston could be passed by some trains or made into request stops.

Not long preston. Its a sizeable village. The railway station is at one end which doesnt help.
I think all Morecambe trains stop at Giggleswick, Clapham, Bentham and Wennington. And have done for years.

 

[yorksrob]

Regardless of usage? That's just silly, wasteful and a disincentive for longer distance passengers caused by extended journey times.

Even the Tarka line has a (very) irregular stopping pattern designed to serve the stations that matter at the times they matter. As @InkyScrolls suggested earlier (probably up thread in this thread) little used stations outside commuting hours, such as Armathwaite, Dent, Ribblehead and Long Preston could be passed by some trains or made into request stops.

The majority of trains on the line serve the full set of stations. I see little evidence that this pattern is putting off longer distance passengers.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not long preston. Its a sizeable village. The railway station is at one end which doesnt help.
I think all Morecambe trains stop at Giggleswick, Clapham, Bentham and Wennington. And have done for years.

Yes, but the thread is about S&C services, not the Lancaster trains. I suggest the vast proportion of passengers using Long Preston are heading towards Leeds. By all means stop some peak hour S&C trains there, but hardly a need for every train to stop - as indeed they don't right now.

Strangely (I find), on Sundays neither the 15.19 ex Carlisle, nor the 16.07 (which is the one remaining semi-fast service) stop a the much better used Gargrave.

The majority of trains on the line serve the full set of stations. I see little evidence that this pattern is putting off longer distance passengers.

You see little evidence because there is little - except the fact that Northern management presumably don't think it's worth running limited stop services. The already stop everything everywhere, with the exception of the Sunday limited stop from Carlisle, the last weekday train from Carlisle (which omits most of the smaller stations from Garsdale, from memory) and some that omit Long Preston.

That doesn't mean everything should stop everywhere, regardless of usage. It's wasteful of fuel and other passengers' time.

 

[anothertyke]

Yes, but the thread is about S&C services, not the Lancaster trains. I suggest the vast proportion of passengers using Long Preston are heading towards Leeds. By all means stop some peak hour S&C trains there, but hardly a need for every train to stop - as indeed they don't right now.

Strangely (I find), on Sundays neither the 15.19 ex Carlisle, nor the 16.07 (which is the one remaining semi-fast service) stop a the much better used Gargrave.

You see little evidence because there is little - except the fact that Northern management presumably don't think it's worth running limited stop services. The already stop everything everywhere, with the exception of the Sunday limited stop from Carlisle, the last weekday train from Carlisle (which omits most of the smaller stations from Garsdale, from memory) and some that omit Long Preston.

That doesn't mean everything should stop everywhere, regardless of usage. It's wasteful of fuel and other passengers' time.

I think the difficulty is south of Skipton. You have 4 local tph to Shipley then 6 to Leeds plus crossing movements at Shipley and no overtaking. You have two available paths per hour for the Morecambe and Carlisle trains. So you probably need to take 30 mins out of the Carlisle to Skipton time to find a vacant path. That means doing it more or less non stop in 90 mins or so. I think realistically you would be talking about upgrading the line speed from 60 to 75.

 

[Zomboid]

Since we're in speculation corner, why stop at 75? It's an expensively built main line alignment which, if you're doing an upgrade of that nature, could probably take 90 or 100 pretty easily.

 

[Iskra]

Since we're in speculation corner, why stop at 75? It's an expensively built main line alignment which, if you're doing an upgrade of that nature, could probably take 90 or 100 pretty easily.

1) What’s the point if the trains stop at a station every few minutes? Would clapped-out 158’s be able to reach such speeds between calls? And even then, as recently stated, unless you can save enough time to reach the path ahead at Skipton, you can’t benefit from the saving on an end-to-end journey anyway.
2) Presumably higher speeds, require a higher maintenance regime that would cost more money and increase subsidy on a line with questionable financial viability at best.