Future potential Northern connect services

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deltic08

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No, Northern's Northern Connect webpage says that the Airport service will terminate at Bradford, so is not dependent on capacity at Leeds. The services running through Bradford to Leeds will be the Chester, the Liverpool and the Blackpool.

The Northern Connect map is very Manchester and MIA orientated. Only three Connect services that do not call there.

It is mentioned on the map that all towns and cities over 8500 will be connected so what about Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven-Millom-Barrow, York-Scarborough, Leeds-Harrogate-York and Leeds-Settle-Carlisle? Cumbrian Coast, Leeds-Harrogate-York and Leeds-Carlisle do not even feature as a non-Connect Northern service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although the Hendy Draft Version of CP5 Enhancements Plan is a very "draft" document, the "Calder Valley East" activity provides linespeed improvements not capacity improvements,



The activities required to deliver increased Calder Valley capacity are somewhat scattered through the document but are identified as including:
  • Bradford Mill Lane capacity (Complete December 2018)
  • Leeds Station capacity (Complete December 2019)
  • Huddersfield to Bradford Resignalling and Recontrol (Identified in a couple of places as being necessary during CP5, but I cant see where this activity is actually being done).Apparently Halifax to Bradford needs resignalling to allow Grand Central trains to run along with the new services.
Leeds Station capacity is interesting since the CP5 HLOS specified a turnback at Micklefield to allow 2 extra Calder Valley services (although West Yorkshire conveniently had a budget for an alternative with a station at East Leeds Parkway), but this seems to have disappeared with Hendy, so presumably there will have to be more spade work at Leeds.


Its not just Piccadilly that needs extra platforms, while we'll have to see what happens when Grip 3 for Leeds capacity is complete in May 2017, a Platform 0 has been mentioned to cater for the 2tph extra to Harrogate, platform lengthening for longer Airdale and Sheffield trains, now something unknown for Calder Valley services.

Micklefield and East Leeds Parkway are the same places. Parkway will have a turnback siding and additional platform. You are confusing the new four platform station where the East Leeds Orbital Road will join the M1 motorway at Thorpe Park with East Leeds Parkway and the A1(M) motorway.

It is of course the wrong place for it as Church Fenton already has a platform off the main running lines for turnback. Only trackwork missing is facing cross over and signalling for such which is less than is needed at Micklefield so therefore less costly but Church Fenton is just inside North Yorkshire and not West Yorkshire and NYCC doesn't want to contribute to this proposal.

For little more than the £15m Micklefield will cost, a siding from Church Fenton to Tadcaster could be reinstated where services could turnback and put Tadcaster back on the map. This would provide P&R adjacent to the A64 York-Leeds road that Micklefield was supposed to cater for
 
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notlob.divad

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I am guessing that map is missing some intermediate stations as the Dft website certainly seems to indicate the Bradford-Liverpool service will stop at least once between Manchester and Liverpool.

I am surprised that the Liverpool - Blackpool hourly service isn't being re branded as Northern Connect when it re-Launches, but it looks like they have focused it on lines that will still have to be Diesel Powered.
 

edwin_m

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I am surprised that the Liverpool - Blackpool hourly service isn't being re branded as Northern Connect when it re-Launches, but it looks like they have focused it on lines that will still have to be Diesel Powered.

The Connect map includes Manchester-Blackpool which will be electric, as presumably will Manchester-Windermere as from whenever the branch is electrified. I think Liverpool-Blackpool will serve most or all stations on the way, so doesn't really qualify as a high-quality fast service - TPE's Liverpool-Glasgow service will provide this south of Preston in some hours.
 

notlob.divad

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The Connect map includes Manchester-Blackpool which will be electric, as presumably will Manchester-Windermere as from whenever the branch is electrified. I think Liverpool-Blackpool will serve most or all stations on the way, so doesn't really qualify as a high-quality fast service - TPE's Liverpool-Glasgow service will provide this south of Preston in some hours.

It was more to differentiate it from the services that stop at Bryn Garswood, Eccleston Park etc. But I suppose you have a point. (It feels connect to me as it is my express, but I suppose compared to others it is rather lack luster. Given we don't have an envisaged stopping pattern for the TPE service I will wait to pas judgement.

Sorry this is totally off the Ordsall Chord topic so I will leave it there.

For the Chord whilst 3tph may be the initial design post Piccadilly expansion, I wouldn't be surprised if another path could be freed up through castlefield junction for a 4th chord path by re-jigging the stopping services.
 

Darren R

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...It is mentioned on the [Northern Connect] map that all towns and cities over 8500 will be connected so what about Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven-Millom-Barrow, York-Scarborough, Leeds-Harrogate-York and Leeds-Settle-Carlisle?

Actually the website says that Northern Connect will serve "all cities and towns with population over 85,000 (unless served by metro or other franchise)." ;)
 

LDECRexile

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I think Liverpool-Blackpool will serve most or all stations on the way, so doesn't really qualify as a high-quality fast service.

I hope Liverpool-Blackpool doesn't become All or Nearly-All Stations, it was what I would call a semi-fast, which is what I imagine and hope Connect trains will be.

I commuted from Halifax to Blackburn for 30 months in the mid-1990s using Northern's York-Blackpool service which I saw as a credit to all concerned and a model to build on: trolley, punctual, two cancellations in 30 months (following heavy snow, roads all impassable) pleasant ambience in 158s and occasional 156s; professional, alert staff who made a visible, audible presence. They checked tickets, gave travel advice and got to know regulars, I don't recall a single grudging doorman.
 

Elecman

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The Connect map includes Manchester-Blackpool which will be electric, as presumably will Manchester-Windermere as from whenever the branch is electrified. I think Liverpool-Blackpool will serve most or all stations on the way, so doesn't really qualify as a high-quality fast service - TPE's Liverpool-Glasgow service will provide this south of Preston in some hours.

Won't the Liverpool Blackpools be just the same calling pattern as the present Liverpool Prestons ( Huyton, St Helens, Wigan NW Balshaw Lane Leyland) and leave the all stations to the Liverpool Wigan Shuttles?
 

notlob.divad

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Won't the Liverpool Blackpools be just the same calling pattern as the present Liverpool Prestons (Huyton, St Helens, Wigan NW Balshaw Lane Leyland) and leave the all stations to the Liverpool Wigan Shuttles?

Some (most) currently extend to Liverpool South Parkway, and I think that is due to continue after it returns to Blackpool.

I haven't read anything to suggest this would become an all stations stopping service. My question was should this be branded a 'Northern Connect Service' even if it isn't a new service for Northern. The Cumbria-Airport services are not new services just transfers. The Blackpool-Manchester Airport, will presumably be EMU operated which look like the only Electric Connect units and thus a bespoke couple of sets for one route.

The planned TPE Liverpool-Glasgow at 3/day is hardly a regular service by another operator, and we have no knowledge of its calling pattern. The current service seems at least equivalent to some of the other routes that are going to be 'connect' and as I pointed out above, it would distinguish it from the all stops Wigan-Liverpool service.

Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but for me it seems an omission.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I haven't read anything to suggest this would become an all stations stopping service. My question was should this be branded a 'Northern Connect Service' even if it isn't a new service for Northern. The Cumbria-Airport services are not new services just transfers. The Blackpool-Manchester Airport, will presumably be EMU operated which look like the only Electric Connect units and thus a bespoke couple of sets for one route.

It's a stopper north of Wigan, and throughout on Sundays.
I suspect no 319-worked trains will be "Connect" services.
The Liverpool-Glasgow will just call at St Helens Central and Wigan, according to the TPE details.
 

Senex

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Seriously not Preston.
Do the details we've seen so far give us all the information? It scarcely seems credible that the Liverpool trains will make just those two calls whilst all the Manchester trains on an established and very well-patronised service continue to be semi-fasts. Equally, is it really going to be the case that the extension of the Newcastle trains to Edinburgh will involve intermediate calls only at Morpeth?
 

notlob.divad

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Many thanks to Yorkie for separating this from the Ordsall Chord thread, as you can see it went a little off topic.

In essence, I was wondering as to the merit of Blackpool - Liverpool being classified as Northern Connect service below is my reasoning.

Northern are getting 12 more 4 car Class 319s from Thameslink. These along with the existing ones apparently need to go through a full refurb program by 2020 to become compliant,

Amongst others, Northern are getting 12 new 4 car Class 331/1s.

331s will apparently be used to service Northern Connect Routes between Manchester Airport and Blackpool/Windamere.

They will also be used on stopping services to Glossop which are not Northern Connect.

The 319s will all be working full stopping services West of Manchester except the Blackpool-Liverpool services.

To me Northern have dropped an opportunity to provide an extra connect route without actually putting on any more services just reallocating which trains serve where.

Assuming different liveries for the Northern Connect brand and the commuter routes, would you not want all your 12 331/1s to have the same design.

LPY-BPN is currently not a 'connect' service, yet it connect Blackpool, Preston, Wigan and St Helens to a Major city. St Helens has over the 80000 people that was deemed a criteria for a Northern connect station. (Yes it looks like it might be served by the 3tpd TPE service to Glasgow which will be very welcome, but is hardly a regular reliable service.)

The full journey matches similar end to end times of other connect services and it is quite clearly a semi-fast (South of Wigan)

Interworking the EMUs through Liverpool will make it easier to service the fleet at the already electrified Allerton Depot, and they could easily be used on the Early morning Liverpool - Airport Express via Chat Moss.

For the Glossop services, the 319s will all be refurbished with a high frequency stop interior which will work well for all the stopping services into Manchester and Liverpool.

Have Northern missed a trick to give themselves an 'extra' Northern Connect route, putting extra places (including St Helens which seems to be an omission) on the Northern Connect map and manage to keep the liveries on the 4 car EMU fleet standardized, all for very little effort and allowing them to be serviced and maintained from their current wired depot.

I have to be honest I don't know if the numbers work out. Even after speed upgrades LPY-BPN are going to be over an hour so I guess 3 units are used. Would 3 units cover the Glossop working so this could be a straight swap?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do the details we've seen so far give us all the information? It scarcely seems credible that the Liverpool trains will make just those two calls whilst all the Manchester trains on an established and very well-patronised service continue to be semi-fasts. Equally, is it really going to be the case that the extension of the Newcastle trains to Edinburgh will involve intermediate calls only at Morpeth?

I suspect the Liverpool-Glasgow may call at Huyton due to its location as an interchange. I am still not convinced it will definitely serve St Helens, I feel it should, as it is the population centre, but a stop at Newton-Le-Willows would have better connectivity. It could also stop at Leyland,

I also wouldn't mind betting that the Liverpool train picks up some of the smaller WCML stops letting a Manchester-Scotland train skip them and run through faster.
 

Camden

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I doubt that Liverpool to Blackpool service will be any different than it was pre 2014, although it should hopefully be faster. Perhaps it is not a Connect route because, along with the other Liverpool Class 319 operated routes, possibly being a candidate for being merged into the Liverpool concession at some point. It could also I suppose just be indicative of the type of stock to be operated on it.
 
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AM9

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... Northern are getting 12 more 4 car Class 319s from Thameslink. These along with the existing ones apparently need to go through a full refurb program by 2020 to become compliant, ...

Surely, it's only necessary to fit one accessible toilet per 4-car set and to the handrail/gangway PRM modifications to make the 319s compliant, just as has already been done on some of the 319s still in use on Thameslink services. They have also received a 'Northern' style refresh at the same time as a C6 overhaul, but nothing that I would describe as a 'full refurb'.
 

aformeruser

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The Northern Connect map is very Manchester and MIA orientated. Only three Connect services that do not call there.

The ITT only required 3 Northern Connect routes:
  • Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington
  • Manchester Airport to Blackpool
  • Manchester Airport to Barrow/Cumbria

This was so the routes which transferred from TPE to Northern got high quality services, opposed to a 150 with 3+2 seating taking the place of a 185.

I'm not sure how you get 3 services not calling at the Airport
  • Chester to Leeds
  • Liverpool to Leeds
  • Bradford to Nottingham
  • York to Blackpool
  • Leeds to Lincoln
  • Sheffield to Hull
  • Middlesbrough to Newcastle
  • Newcastle to Carlisle

I make that 8 out of 12 or 2/3rds of the Northern Connect routes not serving the Airport.

Leeds to the Airport via Bradford was a required route but not a required Northern Connect route, are you saying you're disappointed that Arriva have decided to offer a high quality service on that route?
 

backontrack

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It is mentioned on the map that all towns and cities over 85,000 will be connected so what about Carlisle-Workington-Whitehaven-Millom-Barrow, York-Scarborough, Leeds-Harrogate-York and Leeds-Settle-Carlisle? Cumbrian Coast, Leeds-Harrogate-York and Leeds-Carlisle do not even feature as a non-Connect Northern service.

Carlisle has a population of 75,000. If you combine the populations of Workington, Whitehaven, Barrow, Maryport, Millom, Askam, Dalston, Wigton, Harrington, Aspatria, St. Bees, Seascale and Flimby, it passes 85,000, giving the line a total population of over 160,000.
 

notlob.divad

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Surely, it's only necessary to fit one accessible toilet per 4-car set and to the handrail/gangway PRM modifications to make the 319s compliant, just as has already been done on some of the 319s still in use on Thameslink services. They have also received a 'Northern' style refresh at the same time as a C6 overhaul, but nothing that I would describe as a 'full refurb'.

Yes sorry 'Full' refurb may be a bit too stong a phrase. They had a touch-up job when they where launched in order to get them on the tracks sooner, so I know they need some more work and the accessible toilet fitting.
 

aformeruser

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Surely, it's only necessary to fit one accessible toilet per 4-car set and to the handrail/gangway PRM modifications to make the 319s compliant, just as has already been done on some of the 319s still in use on Thameslink services. They have also received a 'Northern' style refresh at the same time as a C6 overhaul, but nothing that I would describe as a 'full refurb'.

The 319s will have to meet not only the accessibility standards but also the standards specified in the franchise spec which specify that by the end of December 2019 all trains must either be new or refurbished to have a 'like new' interior, which requires a bit more than just putting new seat covers on seats which will be 30 or more years old. I could see them getting away from reupholstering the seats TPE are removing from the 185s and using those in Sprinters and 15xs though.
 

notlob.divad

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I doubt that Liverpool to Blackpool service will be any different than it was pre 2014, although it should hopefully be faster. Perhaps it is not a Connect route because, along with the other Liverpool Class 319 operated routes, possibly being a candidate for being merged into the Liverpool concession at some point. It could also I suppose just be indicative of the type of stock to be operated on it.

This is an interesting point. The 319's would have been an almost like for like replacement of the current Merseyrail units. Before it was announced that Merseytravel where to tender for a full new set, I wonder if there where any discussions with the Dft for taking the rest of the fleet.

I could see the Wigan and Warrington stoppers being merged into a concession, but I can't see it going as far as Blackpool. There is too much running on the WCML for that.
 

3270

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Do the details we've seen so far give us all the information? It scarcely seems credible that the Liverpool trains will make just those two calls whilst all the Manchester trains on an established and very well-patronised service continue to be semi-fasts. Equally, is it really going to be the case that the extension of the Newcastle trains to Edinburgh will involve intermediate calls only at Morpeth?

See the bottom of Page 1 of this document which is the franchise train service requirement for December 2019: http://www.gov.uk/government/upload...838/tpe-tsr-schedule-4b-tsr3b-main-tables.pdf
The table states that the Liverpool - Glasgow trains must call at St Helens Central (or St Helens Junction), Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle. I suppose any extra station calls would be TPE's choice.
The same page of the document also shows that the Liverpool-Newcastle extensions to Edinburgh are only required to stop at Morpeth apart from one morning northbound train which also has to stop at Berwick.
 

notlob.divad

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The specified requirements for services from Manchester to Oxenholme Lake District and Penrith (Lockerbie and Motherwell) may be reduced by up to ??? calls trains per day, if the reduction is offset by an equal or greater number of calls in services from Liverpool Lime Street.

Lockerbie and Motherwell specifically say 3 calls per day.

So I would suggest they will take the option of switching the particularly if they reduce the Scotland <-> Manchester time on those services.
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Back on Northern Connect.
I could see the Liverpool - Sheffield portion or the Liverpool - Norwich East Midlands Service becoming Northern connect down the line, particularly if a more southerly route could be freed up to give Liverpool-Nottingham via Crewe, Stoke and Derby.
 

aformeruser

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This is an interesting point. The 319's would have been an almost like for like replacement of the current Merseyrail units. Before it was announced that Merseytravel where to tender for a full new set, I wonder if there where any discussions with the Dft for taking the rest of the fleet.

Units which can operate in 6 car formations are needed for the Liverpool loop. While Porterbrook claim it's possible to create 3 car 319s, that idea seems to have been ruled out by industry insiders due to the costs involved.
 

notlob.divad

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Units which can operate in 6 car formations are needed for the Liverpool loop. While Porterbrook claim it's possible to create 3 car 319s, that idea seems to have been ruled out by industry insiders due to the costs involved.

Yes I realized the 4 vs (2x3) issue after posting it. I Suspect it would still have been cheaper than a brand new set. If it was done, do you know if the spare cars could have been added into sets to make a combination of 3 car and 5 car sets?

It is a moot point now given the tendering position, but 3/6 car sets running on the Northern and Wirral lines and 5 car sets running on the City line stopping services might have been a neat solution and could have been a first step in moving towards the expanded concession you mentioned above.

Anyhow going off topic again.
 

323235

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Are you sure that Hadfield is getting Class 319s? It would seem more likely given the intensity and suggestions I have elsewhere that it will be operated by 3 or 4 Car x Class 331s once they replace the 323s to ensure maximum acceleration, reduced dwell at Manchester Piccadilly and maximum unit utilisation.

Hadfield currently had 3 x 323s during the day and 4 x units during peak because of the way they operate Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Piccadilly via all sides of the dinting triangle and the spread of services (one 16 minute gap, one circa 20 minute and 30 minute gaps).
 

aformeruser

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Hadfield
The current 3-car electric trains are likely to be replaced by fully refurbished 4-car electric trains by the end of 2017. These too will be replaced in 2020 by brand new electric trains, also with four carriages. They will be able to carry even more passengers than the refurbished trains.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

Apparently the 323s go off-lease in 2018 so maybe the plan is to free up some 323s for other Northern services in 2017?
 

notlob.divad

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Are you sure that Hadfield is getting Class 319s? It would seem more likely given the intensity and suggestions I have elsewhere that it will be operated by 3 or 4 Car x Class 331s once they replace the 323s to ensure maximum acceleration, reduced dwell at Manchester Piccadilly and maximum unit utilisation.

Hadfield currently had 3 x 323s during the day and 4 x units during peak because of the way they operate Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Piccadilly via all sides of the dinting triangle and the spread of services (one 16 minute gap, one circa 20 minute and 30 minute gaps).

No the current plan is that Hadfield doesn't get 319s as far as I am aware. It was my suggestion that they should for various the reasons given above. What you are saying is likely the reason why my plan wouldn't work.
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Quote:
Hadfield
The current 3-car electric trains are likely to be replaced by fully refurbished 4-car electric trains by the end of 2017. These too will be replaced in 2020 by brand new electric trains, also with four carriages. They will be able to carry even more passengers than the refurbished trains.http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html
Would that imply 319s used as a stop gap for 3 years?
 

aformeruser

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Would that imply 319s used as a stop gap for 3 years?

Well the facts are new CAF EMUs don't start arriving until 2018 and the only other inbound EMUs confirmed for Northern are 12 x 319s which apparently start arriving this year. That gives them time to be refurbished before entering service.

Also the interactive timeline mentions final 26 CAF carriages entering service in 2020. If that includes 4 car EMUs for the Glossop line then a stop gap is required as the 323s will have left before then. Plus if those 26 must include at least one diesel train or some electric centre carriages arriving at a later date.
 
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43074

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Back on Northern Connect.
I could see the Liverpool - Sheffield portion or the Liverpool - Norwich East Midlands Service becoming Northern connect down the line, particularly if a more southerly route could be freed up to give Liverpool-Nottingham via Crewe, Stoke and Derby.

It's reported on another thread that TPE are lobbying the DfT for the Nottingham - Liverpool section of the service - if it is transferred to one of the northern franchises it would probably be TPE as was canvassed in 2007 and has cropped up more recently. Having said that, EMT and other stakeholders are keen for the route to stay as now, but ultimately it's the DfT who have the final say.
 

notlob.divad

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It's reported on another thread that TPE are lobbying the DfT for the Nottingham - Liverpool section of the service - if it is transferred to one of the northern franchises it would probably be TPE as was canvassed in 2007 and has cropped up more recently. Having said that, EMT and other stakeholders are keen for the route to stay as now, but ultimately it's the DfT who have the final say.

I was just reading that same thread actually. Splitting at Sheffield would avoid the need for the reversal there which I would always see as a bonus. EMT could continue running the Nottingham Sheffield Leg potentially continuing it up to Leeds in place of the Northern Connect service there.
Liverpool - Sheffield seems a similar kind of service to the Liverpool-Leeds via Bradford that was why I made the suggestion.

An alternate suggestion if TPE want to take the route is EMT took the Sheffield-Airport with reversal at Manchester Piccadilly path to give the East Midlands a direct Aiport connection, whilst the Cleethorpes train that currently does that reversal continues to Liverpool.

Both of these I feel would require a new via Stoke and Derby service from Liverpool.
 
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