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Future preservation of modern trains

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Flying Phil

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I too enjoy the looking out of the front in a DMU set. But I am also looking forward to the irony of having a preserved HST going over the GCR "Gap" and an EMR HST going under it along the Midland Main Line ( I bet they will still be in use!).
 
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L401CJF

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I would imagine the parts situation would be the same as that with the bus preservation scene - raid a few other examples for spares before scrapping - ECUs, dash parts, anything which is prone to failure any other unused parts destined for a skip such as brakechambers etc and store them for years just on the off chance they might be needed one day. Of course needless to say the part you actually need is never one that you have! In a lot of cases spares for buses which where once common (which now arn't), are still often available to buy brand new from parts websites for the early Dennis Darts, Olympians etc, however in some cases the parts are obsolete so modifications have to be made to fit other similar parts which arnt quite right but the best available. Failing that, very costly remanufacturing.

Of course on older buses and trains there are a lot more mechanical components rather than complex electronics like on modern buses and trains where the only feasible option is to raid others for spares first. The truth is it is going to get harder and harder especially as what is now modern technology will be old unsupported obsolete technology in the near future.
 

superjohn

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I suspect that trains built in the late eighties and nineties will prove the most difficult to keep running. They date from a time when electronics were increasingly used but were being bespoke built for the trains. In the post privatisation years train building had become train assembly and much more of the electronics would be built with off the shelf parts or replaced with computers and software.

Computerised designs, documents and drawings for more recent trains are also far more likely to be retained and shared than old style paper documents, helping greatly with preservation.
 

dakta

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It'l be interesting to observe, to be devils advocate though, never before has it been easier to prototype or develop control electronics, the logic behind doors systems for example could be a trivial programming task, and you can even get aftermarket diesel management controllers now pretty much off the shelf.

Fault finding existing systems would probably retain some difficulty due to proprietary firmware and designs, however what can be done with reverse engineering in terms of both software and hardware can be wonderful. (or worrying).

In short it'l be a changing landscape but perhaps not game over - it will foster some new creative skills and it might not be all that bad a thing. The modernisation of maintaining the past might help keep the skills availability/demand somewhat (loosely?) aligned

Most systems will boil down to a very simple set of outputs so i wouldn't be surprised if creative solutions aren't found
 

Cowley

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I may have been a bit dismissive with one of my earlier posts.
Maybe the future of preserved railways could be this:

You arrive at a heritage railway somewhere in the UK in the year 2060, with some passengers (let’s imagine it’s a gala weekend) dressed in authentic Hipster beards and lumberjack attire, plus there’s others dotted around dressed in highly flammable cheap tracksuits and trainers.
You all stand in a little shelter on a windswept graffitied platform feeling a frisson of danger, as bit by bit the warming lights of an “authentically crowded” short formed class 142 appear in the distance and slowly pulls in.
You all fight your way on board (apart from the weakest who are trampled on and left behind). And you head off to a nice romantic dinner down at the end of the line in a genuine recreation of the kind of popular pub you’d find in any old English market town.
Ye Olde Weatherspoons.
A family day out for only £1200!

It’s hard to imagine the things we see around us every day as one day being ‘heritage’, but I suppose they will. Or at least a version of it.
It’s interesting to ponder what will be considered heritage in 40 years time though. Look at what was being rescued from Barry in 1979/80 for a comparison to now.
These are very different times though, and the various well established preserved railways have a new kind of history that’s actually been around even longer than the BR era that most of them are trying to recreate...
 

dakta

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"It’s hard to imagine the things we see around us every day as one day being ‘heritage’"

well that's pretty much it isn't it. We do tend to appreciate things a bit more once the option of experience/enjoying/disliking something is yanked from ones grasp, so you could never say never to your scenario, even if you allow a chuckle at the thought in the present
 

plarailfan

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Eventually, there will probably be far more rail vehicles in preservation, than there is siding space to store them all ! I think it will become like bus preservation, where many of the preserved vehicles are not on display at heritage sites, or in museums.
Their owners will keep them at their home, or pay rent to keep them in local farm buildings etc.
The cab yard is one variation on the theme and no doubt there will be may more similar style, sites in years to come http://thecabyard.co.uk/
 

L401CJF

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Eventually, there will probably be far more rail vehicles in preservation, than there is siding space to store them all ! I think it will become like bus preservation, where many of the preserved vehicles are not on display at heritage sites, or in museums.
Their owners will keep them at their home, or pay rent to keep them in local farm buildings etc.
The cab yard is one variation on the theme and no doubt there will be may more similar style, sites in years to come http://thecabyard.co.uk/

Thanks for sharing, I had never heard of these before so very interesting to have a browse through their collection. I had seen the cab of the 508 sliced off at Eastleigh works but hadn't heard of it until I browsed that site. Excellent stuff!
 

Alanko

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You all stand in a little shelter on a windswept graffitied platform feeling a frisson of danger, as bit by bit the warming lights of an “authentically crowded” short formed class 142 appear in the distance and slowly pulls in.

I like this idea. You get on the train early and you imagine you have a table to yourself. Thirty seconds after you depart an volunteer in a cheap business suit marches up the train, acts as though he's going to go straight past, then decides to sit opposite you. He immediately takes out a company issue Lenovo laptop and starts typing on it as though it is a typewriter. At the same time he produces a Subway sandwich that is 50% tuna and 50% red onions, and proceeds to burp several times.
 

Journeyman

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I like this idea. You get on the train early and you imagine you have a table to yourself. Thirty seconds after you depart an volunteer in a cheap business suit marches up the train, acts as though he's going to go straight past, then decides to sit opposite you. He immediately takes out a company issue Lenovo laptop and starts typing on it as though it is a typewriter. At the same time he produces a Subway sandwich that is 50% tuna and 50% red onions, and proceeds to burp several times.

Further down, someone is playing gangsta rap on their phone and hurling abuse at people asking them to turn it off. Ah, the memories!
 

Bevan Price

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By 2050, Pendolinos (Class 390) will be seen as historic, but not even the NRM will have space to save a full 9 (or 11) coach set. I imagine they may save a short formation - probably not much more than 3 or 4 coaches. A few Voyagers may find their way into "charter" fleets, but I doubt that many heritage railways would want any -- fuel-hungry, expensive to run, unsuitable for 25 mph railways, etc.
 

Meerkat

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For things like a Pendolino why would you need more than a driving car, maybe with one other (buffet?) if there is not representative seating.
Unless being used towed by a loco there is only really a need for a museum with a representative collection of driving cars of different classes.
 

43096

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By 2050, Pendolinos (Class 390) will be seen as historic, but not even the NRM will have space to save a full 9 (or 11) coach set. I imagine they may save a short formation - probably not much more than 3 or 4 coaches. A few Voyagers may find their way into "charter" fleets, but I doubt that many heritage railways would want any -- fuel-hungry, expensive to run, unsuitable for 25 mph railways, etc.
Given that the original plan was for a “complete HST set” to be saved and this has been scaled back drastically, I rather think it would be one car only. The NRM is out of space.
 

tbtc

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Given that the original plan was for a “complete HST set” to be saved and this has been scaled back drastically, I rather think it would be one car only. The NRM is out of space.

I think that some enthusiasts need to be more realistic about what the NRM is for - it's a visitor attraction intended to show a flavour of the railways - it's not a dumping ground for anything and everything - I've seen suggestions on here for pretty much every class to be preserved there (and, in the cases of the 91, pretty much every loco has some apparently special/unique reason for being preserved and in the main shed at the NRM if you believe these threads!) - if people want to store full length trains then good luck to them but I'm not sure that more than a leading coach will be worthy of NRM space, given that the space taken by a four coach train could be used for four separate locomotives (or leading cars), each with a separate role in the railway's history.
 

superjohn

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A few Voyagers may find their way into "charter" fleets, but I doubt that many heritage railways would want any -- fuel-hungry, expensive to run, unsuitable for 25 mph railways, etc.
How many trains are suitable for 25mph railways though? It’s not really a huge consideration or else we would only have preserved DMU’s and small tank engines.

A Voyager, being a four/five car diesel unit, would actually seem eminently more suitable than some other trains.

I think they have a very long life left ahead of them on the mainline though. As unpopular as Voyagers are on here, long distance high speed diesel units will be like gold dust in years to come.
 

xotGD

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Did we need to preserve so many kettles? Surely just photos of them would have sufficed?
In seriousness, there are too many. It isn't possible to keep them all in working order with the available resources.
 

50039

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I think we are in a golden age of preservation - a glut of early diesels which all came available at the same time when people felt wealthy and which are relatively easy to maintain. But how long can they all survive? There will need to be a consolidation at some point - how many 50s are there? Look at the Deltics - I love them, but already we’ve effectively lost #16 for spares, how long will the skills / spares exist to keep the others running?
And the next generation of diesels to come available are so much more complex - eg the class 60s..
 

Alanko

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I think we are in a golden age of preservation - a glut of early diesels which all came available at the same time when people felt wealthy and which are relatively easy to maintain. But how long can they all survive? There will need to be a consolidation at some point - how many 50s are there? Look at the Deltics - I love them, but already we’ve effectively lost #16 for spares, how long will the skills / spares exist to keep the others running?
And the next generation of diesels to come available are so much more complex - eg the class 60s..

I didn't know about D9016/55016, but I have been wondering about poor Alycidon for a while now. I saw it depart Waverley for the last time, so I feel something of a personal connection there. How much effort would it take to restore it back to running condition? How much money and effort does it take to rebuild traction motors? Surely some of the problem is the reliance on a dwindling source of NOS parts and fading knowledge as well.

I've documented it a fair bit on here it seems, but I'm mildly interested in all the 'McRats' that are "preserved" up here in Scotland. It seems that anybody with a low loader and some cash could pick one up from Eastfield, etc, in the early '90s. A lot of these haven't really done much in preservation up here. Bo'Ness has a good example of both a 26 and 27, and a second rougher example of both. As our national railway museum this makes sense. Pretty much every other preserved line in Scotland has a few dead Scottish Type 2 locos rotting away to nothing.

I visited the 26 on the Whitrope line a few weeks ago:

GPOBuFg.jpg


Up close it is rough! The paintwork creates the illusion of it being in okay condition, but there are sections around the cab door that are rusted through. At this point do you break out the car body-filler? Do you find another 26 in worse condition and rob it for parts (a problem, I presume, is that they all corrode in the same weak spots?). Do you fabricate new parts?

The group I was visiting with talked about 3D printing parts, but that seems very optimistic. Plus, I couldn't really get any of them that excited about a Class 26 in the first place!

zaSt8JV.jpg


In general this looks like it needs a lot of work for a loco that is stored uncovered up the top of a moor in the Scottish borders.

Likewise this MK1 coach has some issues.

GRahVjF.jpg


T1soseu.jpg


tV8rHxN.jpg




Presumably this will be a common issue, like that Peak on the Battlefield line. Too expensive to restore, too expensive to move. The weigh-in value wouldn't pay the transportation costs, the gricer community would flay you for scrapping a "perfectly good" loco and the owner probably has some half-delusional plan to have the thing running in like-new condition by summer 2021...

Steam locos seem to be able to drift between Barry Scrapyard condition and fully polished running condition. A lot of these stored Scottish Type 2s seem to be on a common downward trajectory.
 

Meerkat

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Does the NRM have any responsibility to keep records of what is left, who owns it, and what condition it is in? We almost need a listing kind of operation to ensure that the best examples of each class survive - the owners have to at least prevent further deterioration or sell. That would seem a bit unfair on owners but the same duties apply to listed building owners. It would mean that people would be more willing to donate time/money to preserving them if they knew the owner couldn’t sell (or be forced to sell by bankruptcy) to a scrapyard.

re the weigh in not covering the transportation- can’t they be cut up on site?
 

Alanko

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Does the NRM have any responsibility to keep records of what is left, who owns it, and what condition it is in? We almost need a listing kind of operation to ensure that the best examples of each class survive - the owners have to at least prevent further deterioration or sell. That would seem a bit unfair on owners but the same duties apply to listed building owners. It would mean that people would be more willing to donate time/money to preserving them if they knew the owner couldn’t sell (or be forced to sell by bankruptcy) to a scrapyard.

re the weigh in not covering the transportation- can’t they be cut up on site?

I think the Battlefield Peak has an asbestos risk, or is rusted to the rails? There is a reason it can't simply be bulldozed into a skip an done away with.

A rolling, up-to-date gazetteer of everything in preservation would be pretty interesting to see, but it would be a mammoth task to keep it current. Wikipedia sort of fills this role, but it can be horribly out of date at times. There are specialist websites, such as 'Derby Sulzers' that fill the role for specific types.

The issue would also be allowing the owners to contribute their own entries to the gazetteer. A few Wikipedia entries for loco types seem to be a bit optimistic in terms of the condition and likelihood of full restoration for 'preserved' examples! Presumably the owner, or heritage railway operator, logs into Wikipedia and edits the articles themselves.
 

tbtc

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Does the NRM have any responsibility to keep records of what is left, who owns it, and what condition it is in? We almost need a listing kind of operation to ensure that the best examples of each class survive - the owners have to at least prevent further deterioration or sell. That would seem a bit unfair on owners but the same duties apply to listed building owners. It would mean that people would be more willing to donate time/money to preserving them if they knew the owner couldn’t sell (or be forced to sell by bankruptcy) to a scrapyard

That sounds like a way of deterring people from taking on any new projects - I could see the attraction in stumping up for a share of a recently withdrawn locomotive (say the Class 20 that I saw on the RHHT recently)... but you're telling me that I'd be liable to preserve it to the same standards as a historic building? That's quite an undertaking... especially as some locos are bought as "Christmas trees" (to donate parts to others in the class)...

...and would this apply to all preserved stock? Who is going to decide how many in a class need to be preserved? What if nobody wants to preserve a class like a 143? Would someone decide that we need to preserve multiple types of another class given all of the different subclasses/ liveries/ alterations?

And what about the hundreds of locomotives that were preserved prior to your legislation coming in? They are lumbered with a huge liability to maintain a hulking lump of metal (which is quite different to people purchasing a property that was already a listed building).

It's well meaning but it'd result in even fewer trains being preserved.
 

Alanko

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That sounds like a way of deterring people from taking on any new projects.

I don't think it would work at all unless you made some sort of grant funding available. You have to provide a clear incentive. The response would always be that were it not for the owners these locos would be scrapped years ago. Therefore the suggestion of strong-arming owners into taking care of locomotives properly, or forcing them to sell, seems a wee bit totalitarian.

How also do you tackle new-build kettles that seem to dawdle along at glacial pace. If the frames are cut, but nothing else appears to be happening, do you force the group to sell up? What about that loco that was sitting around at RAF Binbrook in pieces? If a loco isn't even on a railway, do you move in and seize it?!

It raises a couple of questions for me. Firstly, what if you can't easily restore these locos? Either the owner has to source or fabricate unobtainable parts, or they are forced to sell. Secondly, who is buying? The Harry Needle Railroad Company? A preserved line looking for more dead locos to add to their linear scrapyards?
 

pdeaves

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What goes in this gazetteer? Do industrials count? What if someone bought something to keep on a plinth on their farm (i.e. just to look nice to them)? Etc.

Shows potential but needs very careful thought if it were to be introduced.
 

Alanko

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What goes in this gazetteer? Do industrials count? What if someone bought something to keep on a plinth on their farm (i.e. just to look nice to them)? Etc.

There is a directory for British aircraft called something like 'BPAC'. I can't find it on Google just now! It is an exhaustive list of Fibreglass Spitfires, Hawker Hunters made by cut 'n' shutting three examples together then left in a field, flat-packed gliders in the back of hangars on GA airfields, etc.

Another thorny issue would be locomotive owners who don't want their locos, and their locations, generally known. How many locos are there out there that are generally imagined to still exist, but nobody has seen for decades?

The mining museum at Prestongrange in East Lothian used to have the tank and funnel from a NCB industrial loco sitting on a 4-wheel wagon of some sort, on a length of track. How do you classify that?
 

Harbornite

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Furthermore will people want to visit modern trains on heritage railways? 66s don't 'thrash'; they get on with their work relatively quietly and reliably! Will a breed of future enthusiast pile onto the platform to listen to 'ying ying ying' in detail? Do modern trains, with their utilitarian looks and fairly character-free performance hold sway with people? Will I toddle along to Bo'Ness in twenty years time to ride on a 170 painted like this?

images

Subjective really. I'd say the old SR third rail units are far more utilitarian-looking than newer stuff, and 66s don't sound that bad.
 
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