Future Transpennine Express Routes post-TRU

[Manutd1999]

TPE currently operate 5ph fast/semi-fast between Leeds and Manchester, with a variety of destinations either side. After the planned Dec 22 timetable change, this is likely to be the following:

(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Newcastle)
(Liverpool) - Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfields - Leeds - (Hull)
(Airport) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - (Middlesborough - Saltburn)
Victoria - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - (Newcastle)
Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Leeds - Scarborough


The initial tranche of TRU works (i.e. 4-tracking + electrification between Huddersfield and Dewsbury) will deliver capacity for 4x fast, 2x semi-fast and 2x stoppers. So this begs the question, where will these extra routes serve?

I see a couple of potential options. In the "least change" option, the 4x fast services could continue as per today but remove calls at Dewsbury/Stalybridge. The stoppers would start from the bay platforms at Victoria and the 2x semi-fast could then both run to Piccadilly. The extra service would probably have to terminate at Leeds because capacity to the east is severely restricted. Something like this:

(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Newcastle)
(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Hull)
(Airport) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Middlesborough - Saltburn)
Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Newcastle)

Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - (Scarborough)
Piccadilly - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Leeds


Alternatively, could it be better to run one (or both, Castlefield permitting) of the semi-fast services to the Airport, with the stoppers going to Piccadilly? This would open up more opportunities to continue the fast services west of Manchester. If there is capacity through Chat Moss, perhaps Chester could be a new destination? Or even going 4ph fast to Liverpool?

(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Newcastle)
(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Newcaste)
(Chester) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Middlesborough - Saltburn)
(Liverpool) - Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - (Hull)

(Airport) - Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Leeds
(Airport) - Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Mirfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - (Scarborough)

 

[HST43257]

I’ve wondered about new destinations, perhaps bringing Llandudno or maybe just Chester in as an extension of the Victoria terminator required due to Castlefield issues. I’ve also thought about having a service via Wakefield Kirkgate, leaving Leeds with the current 5tph, but I don’t know whether there is demand for this.

How about something like

(Liverpool) Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - York (Newcastle)
(Chester) Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - York (Newcastle)
Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Leeds (Hull
(Liverpool) Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - York (Scarborough)
(Airport) Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfield - Dewsbury - Leeds - York (Saltburn)
Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Wakefield - York (Scarborough)

It may seem crazy for me to give 2tph on the Scarborough line, but that has, at some point in the past few years, been an aspiration (albeit not both through TPEs). The one via Wakefield, in terms of conflicting moves, seems a sensible one, plus I’m pretty sure Malton and Scarborough want a Leeds service. Would a 2nd Hull service be better instead?

 

[Manutd1999]

I think Wakefield would be a good option as an extension of one of the stoppers. Instead of terminating both at Huddersfield, one could extend to Wakefield to replace the (pre-Covid) Huddersfield - Castleford Northern service.

If the 2x stoppers run to Piccadilly, I would also consider extending the other one to Bradford (again, replacing an existing Northern service) to further improve connectivity.

 

[S&CLER]

Adding Chester to the TPE network would be a good move, I think, as it would restore a through service from Warrington to Leeds, from Bank Quay, without waiting for NPR. Between Manchester and Chester, it could replace the Northern Leeds-Chester via Calder Valley. Could Victoria cope with 5 TPE trains an hour? Whether 4 tph or 5 are needed between Manchester and Leeds is open to debate. East of Leeds there are 5 eligible destinations, from north to south: 1. Newcastle via Durham 2. Sunderland and Durham Coast 3. Teesside 4. Scarborough and 5. Hull. If there really is still a case for 5 tph on the core section of the TP route, then each of these could have one an hour. York-Newcastle direct is well served already, so sending one train via the coast would add more possibilities for through journeys.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if this is the time, since it is naught but a speculative forum thread, that the RMT in their current view of the day of Sunday as it affects their current Transpennine Express industrial inaction, should gather the RMT male voice choir and treat us all to a stirring rendition of that classic song best sung by Melina Mercouri...."Never on Sunday"

 

[EastisECML]

I'd like to see routes have 2tph rather than 1tph. So something like:

Liverpool - Newcastle 2tph FAST
Chester - Manchester Victoria - Middlesbrough/Scarborough 2tph FAST
Manchester Airport - Hull 2tph SEMI-FAST
Manchester Victoria - Leeds 2tph STOPPER

Along with Calder Valley services:

Bradford - Rochdale - Manchester Victoria - Liverpool 2tph FAST
Bradford - Rochdale - Manchester Victoria - Manchester Airport 2tph SEMI-FAST

 

[Manutd1999]

I don't think there is / will ever be sufficient capacity to start running services from Bradford to Castlefield, but I like the rest of these ideas.

If there is sufficient space through Chat Moss, 6ph would be ideal (4ph Liverpool and 2ph Chester / North Wales). 4ph would then continue to Leeds via Huddersfield, and 2ph to Bradford.

Ideally, Bradford and Leeds would get 1ph to Chester each, but this may be too difficult to path whilst still keeping a clock-face 15 min service from Manchester-Leeds. This would also allow these trains to terminate at Bradford Interchange, freeing up capacity for more 'metro' services between Halifax, Bradford and Leeds.

I think there is a strong argument for a half-hourly Liverpool - Newcastle service. The Dec '22 timetable has the 2x Newcastle services depart Manchester within 15 mins of each other, which is not ideal.

As a outlined in the original post, the semi-fasts could run to the Airport and the stoppers could go to Piccadilly.

2ph Liverpool - Victoria - Leeds - Newcastle FAST
1ph Liverpool - Victoria - Leeds - Hull FAST
1ph Chester - Victoria - Leeds - Middlesborough FAST
1ph Victoria - Leeds - Scarborough SEMI-FAST
1ph Airport - Victoria - Leeds SEMI-FAST

1ph Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Wakefield SLOW
1ph Piccadilly - Huddersfield - Bradford SLOW

1ph Liverpool - Victoria - Bradford SEMI-FAST
1ph Chester - Victoria - Bradford SEMI-FAST

 

[YorksLad12]

I think Wakefield would be a good option as an extension of one of the stoppers. Instead of terminating both at Huddersfield, one could extend to Wakefield to replace the (pre-Covid) Huddersfield - Castleford Northern service.

If the 2x stoppers run to Piccadilly, I would also consider extending the other one to Bradford (again, replacing an existing Northern service) to further improve connectivity.

That had crossed my mind as well; Piccadilly or Victoria to Hudderfield, then Brighouse, Halifax and Bradford. Gives additional options for services to Manchester. I wouldn't extend them to Leeds though... and there are no plans to electrify Huddersfield to Bradford (or Ravensthorpe to Wakefield Kirkgate), so that's that idea gone!

 

[Manutd1999]

and there are no plans to electrify Huddersfield to Bradford (or Ravensthorpe to Wakefield Kirkgate), so that's that idea gone!

In the short/medium term there are no plans to electrify Stalybridge to Huddersfield either, so these will be DMU operated anyway.

 

[EastisECML]

I don't think there is / will ever be sufficient capacity to start running services from Bradford to Castlefield, but I like the rest of these ideas.

The Ordsall chord was meant to have 4tph so I'd hope at some point that will happen. Somehow.

 

[Purple Orange]

I would like to see it all run through Manchester Victoria and I would keep the split of the stoppers at Huddersfield, giving the following:

• 2 fast Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
• 2 fast Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Hull
• 2 semi-fast Manchester Airport - York
• 2 stoppers Manchester Airport - Huddersfield
• 2 stoppers Huddersfield - Leeds

 

[SuperNova]

In the short/medium term there are no plans to electrify Stalybridge to Huddersfield either, so these will be DMU operated anyway.

Yes there are.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the recent ECML consultation was going to reduce TPE to one Newcastle service? Although that timetable was deferred is there any evidence that decision has changed for the longer term?

 

[SuperNova]

I thought the recent ECML consultation was going to reduce TPE to one Newcastle service? Although that timetable was deferred is there any evidence that decision has changed for the longer term?

No decision has been made as yet. But certainly framing TRU as phase 1 of NPR means that Newcastle having only one service an hour would be incredibly stupid. Not to forget the anger from stakeholders around the ECML consultation. Only LNER seem to be happy with it despite the lack of local connectivity it would bring.

 

[xotGD]

Combine the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper with the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford stopper and extend to York then on to Scarborough.

Direct trains from Wakey and Cas to the seaside.

 

[matacaster]

Combine the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper with the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford stopper and extend to York then on to Scarborough.

Direct trains from Wakey and Cas to the seaside.

Helped by platform 2 reinstatement at castleford?

 

[Fokx]

Combine the Manchester - Huddersfield stopper with the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford stopper and extend to York then on to Scarborough.

Direct trains from Wakey and Cas to the seaside.

Does that really need to be the Manchester to Huddersfield service though?

Most passengers on the current route are travelling either to Manchester or Leeds (with weekend demand for York) Demand is currently extremely minimal for Wakefield and Scarborough, Infact I’ve not had a single passenger want to travel to Scarborough on the current service and I work it almost daily

 

[Bevan Price]

I would like to see it all run through Manchester Victoria and I would keep the split of the stoppers at Huddersfield, giving the following:

• 2 fast Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
• 2 fast Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Hull
• 2 semi-fast Manchester Airport - York
• 2 stoppers Manchester Airport - Huddersfield
• 2 stoppers Huddersfield - Leeds

4 fast to/from Liverpool is probably impossible, due to conflicts with local services west of Newton Le Willows.

 

[Manutd1999]

4 fast to/from Liverpool is probably impossible, due to conflicts with local services west of Newton Le Willows.

Maybe, but there is a 4-track section between Huyton and Roby which can be used to overtake stoppers.

4x fast + 4x slow (1x Manchester, 1x Warrington, 2x Wigan, as per now) out of Liverpool may be do-able?

 

[Fokx]

Priority should be for another stopper or semi-fast on Chat Moss (eg. Liverpool then Huyton to Man) rather than more express services.

 

[Purple Orange]

So in light of people’s opinions on fasts to/from Liverpool, what about…

• 2 fast Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Newcastle
• 2 fast Blackpool - Manchester Victoria - Hull
• 2 semi-fast Manchester Airport - York (stopper from Victoria to Airport)
• 2 stoppers Manchester Airport - Huddersfield
• 2 stoppers Huddersfield - Leeds

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Maybe, but there is a 4-track section between Huyton and Roby which can be used to overtake stoppers.

4x fast + 4x slow (1x Manchester, 1x Warrington, 2x Wigan, as per now) out of Liverpool may be do-able?

I believe MPTE has an aspiration for 4tph to Wigan (pre Covid it had been 3tph for quite some time) and may well be opposed to ramping up fast Manchester via Chat Moss services beyond 2tph until NPR has been delivered. As such if additional cross-Manchester destinations for trans-Pennine services are wanted then Chester/N Wales might be operationally more practical.