Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

[jayiscupid]

There's also the displaced Heathrow Express Class 332 units that will be available now which comprises of 14 x 4 car trains (plus 5 additional coaches)

It's a shame the GWR contract for HEx wasn't agreed two years ago, Northern could have used the HEx332's to increase capacity on the Airedale Lines and ordered more 195's instead of 331's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's also the displaced Heathrow Express Class 332 units that will be available now which comprises of 14 x 4 car trains (plus 5 additional coaches)

Being the oldest or nearly the oldest of the post-BR EMUs and not being TPWS fitted I can see them going for scrap.

 

[Bantamzen]

There's also the displaced Heathrow Express Class 332 units that will be available now which comprises of 14 x 4 car trains (plus 5 additional coaches)

It's a shame the GWR contract for HEx wasn't agreed two years ago, Northern could have used the HEx332's to increase capacity on the Airedale Lines and ordered more 195's instead of 331's.

It wouldn't have helped get most Leeds-Skiptons up to the capacity required though, the reason that West Yorkshire will receive 3 car variants of the 331s rather than the 4 cars so that they can be run either as 1*3 or 2*3. As nice as it would have been to get the 332s up (even nicer if the interiors were kept as is, well maybe not in peaks!) generally they could only generally be run as 4 car units with options for some paths to be 5, whereas having a combination of 331s single or doubled up & 333s means that formations can be varied to demand between 3,4 and 6 cars.

 

[59CosG95]

I'm sure the question is being begged somewhere - send the 332s north to join the 333s?
It seems a fairly sensible course of action, given how similar the two classes are.
That can then allow most of the new EMUs on order for Northern to be concentrated around Manchester.

 

[pdeaves]

I'm sure the question is being begged somewhere - send the 332s north to join the 333s?

Does Northern want to pay for (lease) them? How does that fit in with their current rolling stock plan?

We enthusiasts can come up with loads of good ideas to prevent 'new' trains going for scrap (class 58s are 'new' to my mind!) but ultimately it comes down to business, not enthusiast, decisions.

 

[59CosG95]

Does Northern want to pay for (lease) them? How does that fit in with their current rolling stock plan?

We enthusiasts can come up with loads of good ideas to prevent 'new' trains going for scrap (class 58s are 'new' to my mind!) but ultimately it comes down to business, not enthusiast, decisions.

Indeed - these are questions I don't know the exact answers to.
I do know that Northern wants rid of its 321/9s and 322s; these come to 32 vehicles in total (3x 4-car 321s, 5x 4-car 322s). There are 9 4-car 332s (001-004, 010-014), which could replace them like-for-like with one left over, but the question arises of where to put the 5-car units (005-009, 25 veh's total).

 

[43096]

Does Northern want to pay for (lease) them? How does that fit in with their current rolling stock plan?

We enthusiasts can come up with loads of good ideas to prevent 'new' trains going for scrap (class 58s are 'new' to my mind!) but ultimately it comes down to business, not enthusiast, decisions.

In short, it doesn’t fit with their plan. As it stands Northern need more diesel stock rather than electric due to the delays/cancellation to electrification.

Also need to remember that the 332s are not owned by a ROSCO and do not have TPWS. They would also need complete interior refit to make them suitable for Northern.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm sure the question is being begged somewhere - send the 332s north to join the 333s?
It seems a fairly sensible course of action, given how similar the two classes are.
That can then allow most of the new EMUs on order for Northern to be concentrated around Manchester.

Do HEX have plans to replace the 332s? It's tough enough finding somewhere to send units that aren't in use anywhere!

 

[Domh245]

Do HEX have plans to replace the 332s? It's tough enough finding somewhere to send units that aren't in use anywhere!

Yes, they'll be replaced by 387s as detailed in the thread in UK railway discussion

 

[43096]

Do HEX have plans to replace the 332s? It's tough enough finding somewhere to send units that aren't in use anywhere!

Yes - see here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-express-gwr-contract.162470/

 

[59CosG95]

Also need to remember that the 332s are not owned by a ROSCO and do not have TPWS. They would also need complete interior refit to make them suitable for Northern.

Indeed they would - I'd forgotten the TPWS detail. Perhaps the new expanded Doncaster/Sheffield Airport scheme could prove to be a new home for them? Maintenance could be undertaken at Neville Hill (assuming the space is there), but the main stickler would be pathing space for a non-stop (or limited stop) service between Sheffield and the airport - and that's before we enter the quagmire of electrification!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would expect scrap.

They have quite specialised interiors which while very posh won't stand up to much abuse. They aren't TPWS fitted. They have been worked pretty hard. They are 1990s built (just) and so the oldest of the new generation EMUs.

They effectively sit in a similar kind of niche that the Eurostars do.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, they'll be replaced by 387s as detailed in the thread in UK railway discussion

Yes - see here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-express-gwr-contract.162470/

Thanks, both. It appears I've not been keeping up with things!

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm sure the question is being begged somewhere - send the 332s north to join the 333s?
It seems a fairly sensible course of action, given how similar the two classes are.
That can then allow most of the new EMUs on order for Northern to be concentrated around Manchester.

As I've said in another thread, Northern ordered 3 car 331s for use in West Yorkshire to allow 3,4 & 6 car workings. Another fleet of mainly 4 car would not allow them to deliver the capacity improvements on the Aire & Wharfe lines that they are signed up for. There are of course other technical issues it seems, which I'll leave to members with a better understanding of, but in short as things stand they couldn't replace the 331s planned for the area.

Indeed they would - I'd forgotten the TPWS detail. Perhaps the new expanded Doncaster/Sheffield Airport scheme could prove to be a new home for them? Maintenance could be undertaken at Neville Hill (assuming the space is there), but the main stickler would be pathing space for a non-stop (or limited stop) service between Sheffield and the airport - and that's before we enter the quagmire of electrification!

The DSA scheme is purely aspirational, reserved for Peel the owners of the airport, a few local councillors & MPs chasing votes and the Crayolista. And given that DSA's aspirations revolve more around an ECML spur than an extension of the Leeds-Doncaster locals or a shuttle service (and for the latter even 4 car EMUs would be massive overkill, with current numbers even a 153 might be too much for such), its not likely to even cross a DfT desk as a serious proposition for a very, very long time.

 

[Mollman]

If DfT / NR get their act together and start work electrifying & upgrading the Leeds - York / Selby line soon then 332s to Northern would make sense. Displacement would be end of 2019 so start appearing from refurbishment in 2020. They could then start by releasing 333s for refurbishment so electrification east of Leeds wouldn't be needed until mid to late 2021.

 

[The_Engineer]

Sanity check here...... With so many other AC emus coming off lease, which don't necessarily require expensive technical and interior upgrades, Class 332s have no future. ROSCOs will find uses for their own off lease units first without buying these units. Heathrow Express will probably sell them straight to scrap.

 

[BestWestern]

Sanity check here...... With so many other AC emus coming off lease, which don't necessarily require expensive technical and interior upgrades, Class 332s have no future. TOCs will find uses for their own off lease units first without buying these units. Heathrow Express will probably sell them straight to scrap.

Very sad, they're the sexiest units on the network!

 

[43096]

TOCs will find uses for their own off lease units first without buying these units.

Eh? If they are off lease they are nothing to do with the TOC - it's the ROSCO's problem!

 

[The_Engineer]

Eh? If they are off lease they are nothing to do with the TOC - it's the ROSCO's problem!

My apologies - my acronym memory went into random mode..... Now corrected, thank you!

 

[43096]

My apologies - my acronym memory went into random mode..... Now corrected, thank you!

No problem! Agree with you - the ROSCOs are not going to be interested in buying them when they all have their own EMUs with no long-term futures. Same applies to the Heathrow Connect 360s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No problem! Agree with you - the ROSCOs are not going to be interested in buying them when they all have their own EMUs with no long-term futures. Same applies to the Heathrow Connect 360s.

Being bog-standard Desiros I would expect the 360s to find a new home easily enough. I reckon it's quite likely that (overpriced 350/2s aside) LNR will snap up any spare Desiros to tide them over until the Aventras get here and allow them to move away from old fashioned and chronically unreliable 319s.

 

[Domh245]

Haven't they snapped up some 319s to do exactly that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't they snapped up some 319s to do exactly that?

Yes, but they're unreliable and totally different from their main fleet. They have taken them because they are available. They are certainly getting the TPE 350/4s permanently, but a few more would mean the 319s could go away entirely.

 

[Non Multi]

Sanity check here...... With so many other AC emus coming off lease, which don't necessarily require expensive technical and interior upgrades, Class 332s have no future. ROSCOs will find uses for their own off lease units first without buying these units. Heathrow Express will probably sell them straight to scrap.

Recently, anything we've not needed, and is in fair condition... Goes abroad*.

*Unless the owner of the trains have decided to scrap the units.

 

[F Great Eastern]

if any 332s and 360s get scrapped in the next few years it just illustrates how we're very much in the morbid obesity phase of rolling stock orders rather than the famine of the past.

 

[Mikey C]

It's slightly ironic that both the Heathrow and Gatwick expresses had purpose built and fairly new stock (332 and 460) which through no fault of its own ended up displaced, with both airport expresses to be operated by 387s!

 

[ash39]

If DfT / NR get their act together and start work electrifying & upgrading the Leeds - York / Selby line soon then 332s to Northern would make sense. Displacement would be end of 2019 so start appearing from refurbishment in 2020. They could then start by releasing 333s for refurbishment so electrification east of Leeds wouldn't be needed until mid to late 2021.

The problem with that would be the Selby-Huddersfield stoppers would have to be split at Leeds (unless you carried the wires on to Hudds)

A better, more achievable short-term use would be to wire the Harrogate loop. Double track the single sections between Knaresborough and York and make the whole thing half hourly. Lots of untapped potential to remove traffic from the A59 if that section of line had a quicker, more frequent service with nice rolling stock.

Won't happen though, there needs to be somewhere with wires already in situ ready to take trains right now. I can't think of anywhere suitable.

 

[adrock1976]

The problem with that would be the Selby-Huddersfield stoppers would have to be split at Leeds (unless you carried the wires on to Hudds)

A better, more achievable short-term use would be to wire the Harrogate loop. Double track the single sections between Knaresborough and York and make the whole thing half hourly. Lots of untapped potential to remove traffic from the A59 if that section of line had a quicker, more frequent service with nice rolling stock.

Won't happen though, there needs to be somewhere with wires already in situ ready to take trains right now. I can't think of anywhere suitable.

Regarding the electrification of the Harrogate route, I seem to remember reading somewhere back in the second half of the Noughties that there was a proposal to electrify that route with third rail dc and to use former London Underground trains.

Has that suggestion/proposal quietly fell by the wayside?

 

[edwin_m]

I think they should be sent to the Corby line to assuage the fears of its travellers who don't want commuter-standard EMUs.

Tongue out of cheek, gets hat and coat...

 

[snowball]

Regarding the electrification of the Harrogate route, I seem to remember reading somewhere back in the second half of the Noughties that there was a proposal to electrify that route with third rail dc and to use former London Underground trains.

Has that suggestion/proposal quietly fell by the wayside?

Wasn't it just a local politician's idea?