Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

[43096]

Some odd replies on this thread.

Would love to see these units continue in service with someone. The DfT really needs to update and release its rolling stock strategy. These are just one of many classss of unit we know not the future off.

Just read this thread! Why would anybody want a small fleet of non-standard trains with a history of mechanical issues?

 

[t_star2001uk]

Some odd replies on this thread.

Would love to see these units continue in service with someone. The DfT really needs to update and release its rolling stock strategy. These are just one of many classss of unit we know not the future off.

What say does the DFT have in the future of these units...

 

[LOL The Irony]

What say does the DFT have in the future of these units...

Like every train, not much. If it was a franchise, they could stipulate either their retainment or removal but it's an open access job and they don't own the trains.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What say does the DFT have in the future of these units...

Absolutely none. They belong to Heathrow Airport, not a ROSCO so it is up to the airport what they do with them.

 

[hwl]

Just read this thread! Why would anybody want a small fleet of non-standard trains with a history of mechanical issues?

Exactly DfT's approach nationally is a bit more market (TOC) lead now, with lemons leaving the market.

Mind you DfT will probably still have few cunning plans.

The joint RDG/ROSCO minimum features document for new stock to prevent lack of Section 54 issues for ROSCOs and make new stock more cascadable in the future and prevent cheap spec'ing e.g. DOO and SDO equipment

 

[CosherB]

Just read this thread! Why would anybody want a small fleet of non-standard trains with a history of mechanical issues?

Doesn't stop people rehoming 175s and 180s as well ........

 

[Oscar46016]

Can anyone tell me how many HE units are in operation during non-peak weekdays - I was thinking of taking a few trips on them.

 

[JN114]

Can anyone tell me how many HE units are in operation during non-peak weekdays - I was thinking of taking a few trips on them.

10, all being well 5x 5+4 sets.

 

[Oscar46016]

10, all being well 5x 5+4 sets.

Thanks

 

[plugwash]

Doesn't stop people rehoming 175s and 180s as well ........

A bunch of new EMUs have been bought for high-profile lines, Thameslink and Crossrail being the two most obvious ones. On top of that a bunch of electrification projects have stalled or been cut back. The result has been that many perfectly serviceable EMUs are sitting mothballed and TOCs get to be picky about which ones they hire in for capacity increases.

DMU stock is rather more constrained....

 

[CosherB]

A bunch of new EMUs have been bought for high-profile lines, Thameslink and Crossrail being the two most obvious ones. On top of that a bunch of electrification projects have stalled or been cut back. The result has been that many perfectly serviceable EMUs are sitting mothballed and TOCs get to be picky about which ones they hire in for capacity increases.

DMU stock is rather more constrained....

What has Thameslink and Crossrail got to do with HEx? HEx has been taken over by GWR, while Heathrow Connect is now part of TfL Rail.

As for being picky, I'm sure the 332s are at or close to the bottom of a long list of preferred EMUs for TOCs going forward.

And I'm not hearing of the clamour for the 175s (yet) once TfW have dispensed with their services ...

 

[adc82140]

Crossrail and Thameslink are pertinent to the discussion. The influx of new EMUs for these services mean that there's a glut of old EMUs looking for homes. This means that the non standard small fleet of 332s (not to mention their non standard ownership) are likely to be fairly near the bottom of the list for redeployment.

In addition, it was my understanding that Heathrow Airport will continue to operate HEX, with day to day running sub contracted to GWR.

 

[samuelmorris]

Crossrail and Thameslink are pertinent to the discussion. The influx of new EMUs for these services mean that there's a glut of old EMUs looking for homes. This means that the non standard small fleet of 332s (not to mention their non standard ownership) are likely to be fairly near the bottom of the list for redeployment.

In addition, it was my understanding that Heathrow Airport will continue to operate HEX, with day to day running sub contracted to GWR.

Your point is valid but Thameslink and Crossrail aren't really the places to point fingers at as the units displaced by those services are pretty much end of life, even if some of the 319s have seen further use for now. The real cause of this is franchises displacing stock not due for retirement, e.g. South Western, Greater Anglia and West Midlands.

 

[Aictos]

Surely the Class 332s will just get scrapped for parts being recovered to use on the Class 333s?

 

[nlogax]

Maybe they could be used for <insert all the daft suggestions we've already had for Class 442s here>

 

[Neptune]

The ideal place for 332’s to go is Northern and be merged with the mechanically identical 333 fleet including a refurbishment to similar standards. This would allow the 32x fleet to be withdrawn with a net gain of 6 units to allow redundancy against failures and allow introduction of more peak time services.

Included in this are the 5x5 car units which would cope on key peak services up the Aire/Wharfe valleys and allow the now spare 331 units planned for West Yorkshire to replace some, if not all of the 319’s. Maybe these 319’s could then be converted into 769’s (yes I know....) and help eliminate some 150’s.

Pie in the sky maybe but would certainly help start to eliminate some of the worst stock on Northern and save the 332’s, which have potentially 20 years more service in them, from the cutters torch.

 

[CosherB]

The ideal place for 332’s to go is Northern and be merged with the mechanically identical 333 fleet including a refurbishment to similar standards. This would allow the 32x fleet to be withdrawn with a net gain of 6 units to allow redundancy against failures and allow introduction of more peak time services.

Included in this are the 5x5 car units which would cope on key peak services up the Aire/Wharfe valleys and allow the now spare 331 units planned for West Yorkshire to replace some, if not all of the 319’s. Maybe these 319’s could then be converted into 769’s (yes I know....) and help eliminate some 150’s.

Pie in the sky maybe but would certainly help start to eliminate some of the worst stock on Northern and save the 332’s, which have potentially 20 years more service in them, from the cutters torch.

No thanks, I’d much prefer for Northern to keep our 323s and then cascade the WM 323s to Northern in due course.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The ideal place for 332’s to go is Northern and be merged with the mechanically identical 333 fleet including a refurbishment to similar standards. This would allow the 32x fleet to be withdrawn with a net gain of 6 units to allow redundancy against failures and allow introduction of more peak time services.

Included in this are the 5x5 car units which would cope on key peak services up the Aire/Wharfe valleys and allow the now spare 331 units planned for West Yorkshire to replace some, if not all of the 319’s. Maybe these 319’s could then be converted into 769’s (yes I know....) and help eliminate some 150’s.

Pie in the sky maybe but would certainly help start to eliminate some of the worst stock on Northern and save the 332’s, which have potentially 20 years more service in them, from the cutters torch.

Only these units are not mechanically identical as indicated in a previous post. The 333s incorporated design changes.
Also the 332s don’t have TPWS fitted and are in a poor mechanical condition having had the bare minimum of maintenance whilst being used intensively.

Add to that a glut of new EMUs leading to large numbers of perfectly serviceable stock being withdrawn into storage and the fact that the 332s are owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO and pie in the sky doesn’t even come close.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Pie in the sky maybe but would certainly help start to eliminate some of the worst stock on Northern and save the 332’s, which have potentially 20 years more service in them, from the cutters torch.

It seems like they've had an easy life on Heathrow services but HEx have abused them and now they're most likely going to be stripped of parts that also fit the 333's. Anything that remains will be sent for scrap.

 

[The Ham]

Maybe they could be used for <insert all the daft suggestions we've already had for Class 442s here>

Everyone knows how great the 442's are and they were busy guessing at the next step in their route to becoming the spaceships which will take us to Earth 2.0.

(Just for clarification there's a hint of sarcasm in the above post before someone suggests my tinfoil hat has slipped).

 

[RealTrains07]

Your point is valid but Thameslink and Crossrail aren't really the places to point fingers at as the units displaced by those services are pretty much end of life, even if some of the 319s have seen further use for now. The real cause of this is franchises displacing stock not due for retirement, e.g. South Western, Greater Anglia and West Midlands.

West midlands being the worst out of the 3. GA and SWR both have EMUs at the end of life to be honest but yeah i know what you mean. Blame the DofT for that and making companies order cheap trains instead of putting up with what they have.

We have to remember that all recent new stock has had major issues as such. Cant just shut off the 332s just cause they have plagued mechanical problems

 

[JN114]

We have to remember that all recent new stock has had major issues as such. Cant just shut off the 332s just cause they have plagued mechanical problems

But you can on the grounds that -

1) They’re owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO. So for them to see any useful mainline use outside of HEX one of the ROSCOs is going to have to put its hands in its pockets and buy the units off Heathrow - if Heathrow are even interested in selling them.

2) They’re not fitted with mandatory safety system to operate anywhere other than Paddington - Heathrow. Once that ROSCO has bought them outright they then have to pay to have TPWS fitted.

That’s the stuff you have to do before you start thinking about mechanical condition, interior, compatibility with other fleets and so on. Why are Porterbrook or Angel etc going to spend millions getting 14 clapped out EMUs to that point when they’re storing perfectly serviceable, already compatible EMUs left, right and centre.

Sometimes stuff gets scrapped before its time. It may seem wasteful from the comfort of some armchairs; but there is zero economic case to making these units fit for ordinary mainline work. If there wasn’t the glut of off-lease or soon off-lease stock on the market it may be a different story. But there is, and therefore it isn’t.

 

[ainsworth74]

Have to say my money is on scrapping. I can see Heathrow Airport selling off parts to Siemens for use on the 333s beforehand but otherwise has to be scrapping. There's just too much other stuff floating around that have much fewer problems than the 332s.

 

[route:oxford]

1) They’re owned by Heathrow Airport and not a ROSCO.

Isn't that the one thing that makes them very interesting?

They will be available to any open access operator, or holding company of a TOC, who offers enough for them. They don't have to be bought by a ROSCO.

 

[The Ham]

Isn't that the one thing that makes them very interesting?

They will be available to any open access operator, or holding company of a TOC, who offers enough for them. They don't have to be bought by a ROSCO.

Although it would be a possibility, there's still the issue with that there would need to be more money spent on them to allow them in service anywhere else.

 

[Tedy]

Purely from a numerical point of view in terms of the number of vehicles the following would be possible, which would give a fleet of 21 x 5-car 333's:

All 16 non-driving vehicles are removed from 4-car 332001-004 and 010-013 and refurbished, with the current fleet of 333001-016 each receiving 1.

5-car 332005-009 remain in their current formations, are refurbished and become 333017-021.

All driving cars from 332001-004 and 010-013, as well as all 4 vehicles from the long-demic 332014 are sent to the rolling stock graveyard.

Obviously won't happen due to a million and one other reasons, but would have worked numerically.

Cheers.

Can someone confirm that 332014 can be seen from the mainline as you pass the Hex Depot parked up looking sorry for itself?

 

[Aictos]

Isn't that the one thing that makes them very interesting?

They will be available to any open access operator, or holding company of a TOC, who offers enough for them. They don't have to be bought by a ROSCO.

What's the point? The money needed to be spent on them to make them fit for such purpose would far outweight any economical benefits, they've had their day and they will only be scrapped.

Blame Heathrow for running them into the ground so much that it's the only viable outcome with nits being stripped for parts that can be reused on the Class 333s.

 

[Mikey C]

What's the point? The money needed to be spent on them to make them fit for such purpose would far outweight any economical benefits, they've had their day and they will only be scrapped.

Blame Heathrow for running them into the ground so much that it's the only viable outcome with nits being stripped for parts that can be reused on the Class 333s.

As they own the trains, it's up to them how they treat their trains and what they do with them afterwards. Looking back it was a slightly strange arrangement, an airport owning the trains and operating its airport service, partially over NR tracks. I guess this was partially a timing issue as the construction started before the privatisation of BR had been completed.

 

[Aictos]

As they own the trains, it's up to them how they treat their trains and what they do with them afterwards. Looking back it was a slightly strange arrangement, an airport owning the trains and operating its airport service, partially over NR tracks. I guess this was partially a timing issue as the construction started before the privatisation of BR had been completed.

I know but being realistic they will be scrapped end of.

 

[Dave91131]

Can someone confirm that 332014 can be seen from the mainline as you pass the Hex Depot parked up looking sorry for itself?

The last time I passed around 8 weeks ago it could be - probably not possible to identify the unit number due to the curved fronts of the driving cars, but possible to identify it either from a carriage number or from the fact that it cuts a very forlorn figure with various parts including (last time I saw it) headlights and pantograph missing.

Hope this helps.