Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

[hexagon789]

And it's not as if there's anything wrong with the 332s either, which seemed perfectly suited for the HEx route. An unscientific analysis perhaps, but I don't recall a single thread beforehand talking about the possibility of 387s replacing them.

I don't recall either.

I think it's very much like the 373s, they were built for a specific job avd they've done it for a while and are now a bit tired and a bit non-standard as well.

 

[gingertom]

Quite possibly not!

Are the two classes identical then save lack of TPWS in the 332s and interior layout differences?

I reckon they will be harvested for spare parts then scrapped. Traction motors, compressors and other high value items will find new homes after overhaul.

 

[43096]

I think a lot of people see it as a waste of stock at a time when stock shouldn't be wasted if possible. Transfer to Northern seems the most sensible option for the class but in my opinion the most likely outcome is the scrapheap.

It’s all well and good saying transfer to Northern to replace x or y, but that ignores the hard reality of contracts that are in place with both DfT and the ROSCOs. There’s too many people who are totally ignorant of that.

 

[hexagon789]

I reckon they will be harvested for spare parts then scrapped. Traction motors, compressors and other high value items will find new homes after overhaul.

Presumably spares for 333s, unless they share mechanical components with any other classes?

 

[hexagon789]

It’s all well and good saying transfer to Northern to replace x or y, but that ignores the hard reality of contracts that are in place with both DfT and the ROSCOs. There’s too many people who are totally ignorant of that.

I can appreciate that and I know it's unlikely they won't get scrapped but I still feel it's a waste somehow.

 

[43096]

I can appreciate that and I know it's unlikely they won't get scrapped but I still feel it's a waste somehow.

You could equally say that about the Renatus 321s, 360s, 379s, 455s, 458s, 707s...

 

[hexagon789]

You could equally say that about the Renatus 321s, 360s, 379s, 455s, 458s, 707s...

800s...

 

[43096]

800s...

We can dream!

 

[JN114]

And it's not as if there's anything wrong with the 332s either, which seemed perfectly suited for the HEx route. An unscientific analysis perhaps, but I don't recall a single thread beforehand talking about the possibility of 387s replacing them.

Anecdotally, the reliability has dipped massively over the past 2-3 years. 332s used to be virtually bullet-proof, major failures in traffic simply didn’t happen. More recently there’s been at least 2 major failures on the mainline in the past few months, short-forms seem to be becoming more common, there was the “recall” issue last spring with the bogies, and they didn’t want to come out and play in the recent snow. The fleet is worked very hard, and it’s starting to show.

They were never going to fit ETCS to them - the electronics architecture just won’t support it. GW-ATP is becoming life expired, the system is nearly 30 years old. Even if the GWR/HX deal hadn’t been proposed new stock would have been needed in the coming years - AGA 360s may have been an option; with sufficient additional units for services West of the Airport.

Going forward there are two stumbling blocks.

1) Ownership. The trains are directly owned by Heathrow Airport. ROSCOs already have a glut of EMUs coming off lease, many of which are considerably more capable and modern than 332s.

2) Technology. The trains are not fitted with TPWS or GSM-R. Both of which would be required for the units to be productive elsewhere. The interior-fit is very “luxury-Airport-express”, again very few places they would be useful. They’re also not particularly quick off the mark by modern EMU standards.

 

[js1000]

It’s all well and good saying transfer to Northern to replace x or y, but that ignores the hard reality of contracts that are in place with both DfT and the ROSCOs. There’s too many people who are totally ignorant of that.

Aye. Also ignores the idea if Northern wanted some more units to replace the 321 and 322s they wouldn't go for 332s (which require upgrade work) - they'd just go for the 26 323s going spare in the next couple of years as they already operate a decent sized fleet.

 

[DanNCL]

Aye. Also ignores the idea if Northern wanted some more units to replace the 321 and 322s they wouldn't go for 332s (which require upgrade work) - they'd just go for the 26 323s going spare in the next couple of years as they already operate a decent sized fleet.

The 323s would need to be made PRM compliant though, whereas the 332s already are PRM compliant.

 

[D365]

The 323s would need to be made PRM compliant though, whereas the 332s already are PRM compliant.

You think converting the 332 interiors to be suitable for general use is less difficult than 2020 mods?

 

[DelW]

I can appreciate that and I know it's unlikely they won't get scrapped but I still feel it's a waste somehow.

Traditionally railway vehicles have been built to have a much longer design life than road vehicles, but with increasing complexity, and the presence on board of more electronic and software systems which become obsolete much more quickly, the planned lifespan is likely to be reduced. The HEx trains are twenty years old, and have been intensively used for that time. How many people would expect to use a car that age every day, or travel in a twenty year old bus, let alone use a twenty year old TV, laptop or mobile phone.

There comes a point where the necessary updates and repairs are more costly than the value of what is being retained, or more than the future revenue would be, and at that point scrapping is the economically rational process, just as it was/is for the original Eurostars.

 

[DanNCL]

You think converting the 332 interiors to be suitable for general use is less difficult than 2020 mods?

It's not that difficult. Many tocs have fully replaced the interiors of units; the SWT refurbishment of the 455s is a good example of that.

But on a temporary basis (obviously it wouldn't work long term) the existing standard class on the 332s could be retained anyway; it's only first class that would need mods/removing for use elsewhere.

 

[Domh245]

You think converting the 332 interiors to be suitable for general use is less difficult than 2020 mods?

It'll be cheaper for sure, accessible toilet modules and PIS systems won't be cheap (compared to seats and labour)

 

[JN114]

It'll be cheaper for sure, accessible toilet modules and PIS systems won't be cheap (compared to seats and labour)

Yes but it’s not just the cost of conversion. Heathrow won’t give the units away for free - someone needs to Purchase them first. And while they’re second hand they won’t be cheap. I agree the modifications would be cheaper than existing stock; but that’s ignoring the purchase cost. Why is a ROSCO going to purchase - for likely millions of pounds - 14 old EMUs that require thousands of pounds of new safety equipment each. With all these surplus assets the ROSCOs are going to be wanting to put their existing fleets to use before procuring another.

 

[hexagon789]

We can dream!

I know, shame it's only a dream

 

[hexagon789]

Traditionally railway vehicles have been built to have a much longer design life than road vehicles, but with increasing complexity, and the presence on board of more electronic and software systems which become obsolete much more quickly, the planned lifespan is likely to be reduced. The HEx trains are twenty years old, and have been intensively used for that time. How many people would expect to use a car that age every day, or travel in a twenty year old bus, let alone use a twenty year old TV, laptop or mobile phone.

There comes a point where the necessary updates and repairs are more costly than the value of what is being retained, or more than the future revenue would be, and at that point scrapping is the economically rational process, just as it was/is for the original Eurostars.

I think I just have this mentality of not wanting anything to go to waste, but if they are done in then they are done in, but if there is any potential for use elsewhere I think it should at least be considered.

 

[js1000]

Yes but it’s not just the cost of conversion. Heathrow won’t give the units away for free - someone needs to Purchase them first. And while they’re second hand they won’t be cheap. I agree the modifications would be cheaper than existing stock; but that’s ignoring the purchase cost. Why is a ROSCO going to purchase - for likely millions of pounds - 14 old EMUs that require thousands of pounds of new safety equipment each. With all these surplus assets the ROSCOs are going to be wanting to put their existing fleets to use before procuring another.

Nail. Hit. On. Head. The problem in the coming years is an EMU surplus.

Eversholt don't really know what to do with 40 365s and neither do Porterbrook with the 46 323s beyond 2019. (although logic would dictate Northern will take most if not all of them at a knockdown rate, potentially returning the 319s for 769 conversions if it's a success)

And I wouldn't put it past the new South Eastern franchise to replace the 43 466s when the new franchise starts in December. Decent enough trains but that franchise fleet is beginning to look tired by London/South East standards.

 

[alexl92]

I don't think this has already been suggested; apologies if it has. It sounds like Leeds- Bradford airport is finally going to get a rail link - will that be electrified and if so would a small number of the 332s do for airport services to and from the two cities? I'm working on the basis that the similarity to 333s makes it viable to operate a micro-fleet; I don't know if that's even remotely realistic though.

 

[53703]

I think I just have this mentality of not wanting anything to go to waste, but if they are done in then they are done in, but if there is any potential for use elsewhere I think it should at least be considered.

Quite right, any chance of them going to TPE so I can cross them off without spending a small fortune?

 

[D365]

Eversholt don't really know what to do with 40 365s...

Well Eversholt knows where 19 of them will be

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think this has already been suggested; apologies if it has. It sounds like Leeds- Bradford airport is finally going to get a rail link - will that be electrified and if so would a small number of the 332s do for airport services to and from the two cities? I'm working on the basis that the similarity to 333s makes it viable to operate a micro-fleet; I don't know if that's even remotely realistic though.

The LBA rail link is going to be nothing more than a nearby parkway on the Harrogate line, if indeed it ever does get rubber stamped. And such a parkway would be more likely the be used by commuters in & around the area rather than passengers heading to the airport. Plus of course there are no firm plans to wire the Harrogate line so 332s just wouldn't be an option.

However, the idea of keeping them as an airport service might still have a bit of merit if one of the other main airports with stations / routes that are wired were to look into buying / leasing them & finding suitable paths for them?

 

[hexagon789]

Quite right, any chance of them going to TPE so I can cross them off without spending a small fortune?

I like the idea, but the 100 mph top speed might hamper things a bit!

 

[edwin_m]

Quite right, any chance of them going to TPE so I can cross them off without spending a small fortune?

They wouldn't be much use unless/until Manchester-York was electrified, continuously with no "Grayling gaps". I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[D365]

I can appreciate that and I know it's unlikely they won't get scrapped but I still feel it's a waste somehow.

Waste of whose money?

 

[hexagon789]

Waste of whose money?

Waste of useable stock.

 

[D365]

Waste of useable stock.

Which in their current state is less useable than the Class 360s and 350/2s (among others) soon to be going spare.

 

[hexagon789]

Which in their current state is less useable than the Class 360s and 350/2s (among others) soon to be going spare.

I appreciate that they cannot be as readily used as other stock, I just meant that it feels like a bit of a waste not that it necessarily is.

 

[class387]

And it's not as if there's anything wrong with the 332s either, which seemed perfectly suited for the HEx route. An unscientific analysis perhaps, but I don't recall a single thread beforehand talking about the possibility of 387s replacing them.

I suggested replacing 332s with 379s once though...